Open Hearing: Nomination of Christine Abizaid to be Director of National Counterterrorism Center of the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) and the Nomination of Robin Ashton to be Inspector General of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)

[Senate Hearing 117-84] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 117-84 OPEN HEARING: NOMINATIONS OF ROBIN ASHTON TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY; AND CHRISTINE ABIZAID TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 2021 __________ Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Intelligence [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov __________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 45-489 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE [Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.] MARK R. WARNER, Virginia, Chairman MARCO RUBIO, Florida, Vice Chairman DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California RICHARD BURR, North Carolina RON WYDEN, Oregon JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico SUSAN COLLINS, Maine ANGUS KING, Maine ROY BLUNT, Missouri MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado TOM COTTON, Arkansas BOB CASEY, Pennsylvania JOHN CORNYN, Texas KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York BEN SASSE, Nebraska CHUCK SCHUMER, New York, Ex Officio MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky, Ex Officio JACK REED, Rhode Island, Ex Officio JAMES INHOFE, Oklahoma, Ex Officio ---------- Michael Casey, Staff Director Brian Walsh, Minority Staff Director Kelsey Stroud Bailey, Chief Clerk C O N T E N T S ---------- JUNE 9, 2021 OPENING STATEMENTS Page Warner, Hon. Mark R., a U.S. Senator from Virginia............... 1 Rubio, Hon. Marco, a U.S. Senator from Florida................... 3 WITNESSES Coats, Dan, former U.S. Senator from Indiana, and former Director of National Intelligence....................................... 4 Letter of support for the nomination of Christine Abizaid.... 7 Letter of support for the nomination of Robin Ashton......... 10 Ashton, Robin, Nominated to be Inspector General of the Central Intelligence Agency............................................ 11 Prepared statement........................................... 14 Abizaid, Christine, Nominated to be Director of the National Counterterrorism Center........................................ 17 Prepared statement........................................... 19 SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL Nomination material for Robin Ashton Questionnaire for Completion by Presidential Nominees........ 42 Additional Pre-Hearing Questions............................. 60 Post-Hearing Questions....................................... 81 Nomination material for Christine Abizaid Questionnaire for Completion by Presidential Nominees........ 84 Additional Pre-Hearing Questions............................. 104 Post-Hearing Questions....................................... 126 OPEN HEARING: NOMINATIONS OF ROBIN ASHTON TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY; AND CHRISTINE ABIZAID TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER ---------- WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 2021 U.S. Senate, Select Committee on Intelligence, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m., in Room SH-216 in the Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Mark R. Warner (Chairman of the Committee) presiding. Present: Senators Warner, Rubio, Wyden, Heinrich, King, Bennet, Casey, Gillibrand (via WebEx), Burr, Blunt, Cotton, Cornyn, and Sasse. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARK R. WARNER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM VIRGINIA Chairman Warner. I'd like to call this hearing to order and welcome our witnesses and our extraordinarily distinguished introducer. My apologies to our witnesses. This is a slightly unusual time for the Committee to meet. And so there will be a number of Members joining us midstream. I welcome to our nominees Christine Abizaid and Robin Ashton. I believe Robin's husband is here, Dr. Yves Rosenberg. And Ms. Abizaid's wife is also here, Jill Murphy. So glad that your family members are here. Congratulations on your respective nominations to serve as Director of the National Counterterrorism Center, or NCTC, and as Inspector General of the CIA. Welcome, not only to the members of your family that are here, but those members who are here remotely. Let me also say on behalf of all of the Committee Members, we really want to welcome back our good friend, former Committee Member, former Director of National Intelligence, Dan Coats, who will be introducing Ms. Ashton. So, Dan, it is absolutely great to see you. And you can see the news that you were coming in here to introduce a witness really got all the Members back. [Laughter.] So these are both key positions in the Nation's Intelligence Community at a time of significant challenges and also opportunities for our Nation. Both of you have distinguished records of national service. Ms. Ashton, the job of Inspector General is critical to the effective operation of any agency. And should you be confirmed, I think as history has shown, you're going to have one of the most important roles at the CIA, because independent and impartial Inspectors General help to ensure there is robust oversight of an agency that by necessity undertakes its most effective and important work in secrecy. By statute, the CIA Inspector General is expressly mandated to report not only to the Director, but also to this Committee, which made it specifically accountable to Congress. This is necessary that we are able to conduct robust oversight of the CIA. This Committee relies upon the Inspectors General of the intelligence agencies to ensure that the IC organizations are both using taxpayer dollars wisely, conducting their activities within the rule and spirit of the law, and supporting and protecting whistleblowers who report waste, fraud, and abuse. I enjoyed our recent meeting. I believe you would bring significant experience to the role of CIA Inspector General, given your more than 30 years' experience at the Department of Justice, including head of the Department's Office of Professional Responsibility, two decades as an Assistant U.S. Attorney for the District, and given your recent role as a Principal Deputy IG of the Intelligence Community. I normally ask nominees for this important post-- [Audio interruption from unknown source: Yes, okay, so now you see now I have--] Vice Chairman Rubio. At least it wasn't in Russian. Chairman Warner. At least it wasn't in Russian this time. [Laughter.] I was going to say that we normally ask IGs, will they speak truth to power? But truthfully, you have shown that record and your willingness to do so and that you will not give in to pressure. That is critically important, and we will need you to maintain that I think critically important record if you are confirmed, and I hope you will be, when you take on the role of IG for the CIA. One more thing I forgot to mention: you would be the first Senate-confirmed IG at the CIA in seven years. This has been way too long for this important post. And I'd like to hear your ideas about what you hope you can accomplish in this key role in assuming and running this important office. Ms. Ashton, thank you again for being here and agreeing to take on this serious responsibility. Ms. Abizaid, congratulations on your nomination. You also bring significant experience to your position: as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Central Asia; on the National Security Council; in the private sector; and for over a decade as a senior counterterrorism intelligence officer at the DIA. You've obviously had a number of other roles. NCTC, as you know, was created in the wake of September 11, 2001, to connect the dots and ensure that a terrorist attack like 9/11 never occurs again on our soil. Twenty years on, although we are increasingly focused on great power competition, our terrorist adversaries continue to operate globally and aspire to attack U.S. interests. Those of us on this Committee know that plots continue to evolve every day. American interests, allies, and our military men and women deployed remain terrorist targets. And unfortunately, because of those actions, some of them don't make it back to their families. ISIS is still a threat around the world, not just in Syria. Moreover, the dangerous ideologies of violent extremism, whether jihadist or white supremacists, continue to draw followers around the globe and to inspire attacks against innocent civilians. As well, we know Al Qaida also remains a threat. I'm concerned that as U.S. forces draw down in Afghanistan and have already withdrawn from Somalia, it will become more difficult to gain actionable intelligence on terrorists who still operate in these locations. So I'd welcome your thoughts on how the CT mission will be undertaken, especially after the Afghan withdrawal is complete. I look forward to understanding how you would define success should you be confirmed and what role with this changing threat environment as well as the, I think, appropriate focus on our traditional great power adversaries, how NCTC will evolve in this world. Now, after the Vice Chairman and I give our opening statements, Director Coats will say a few words and then our witnesses will be given their statements. After this, Members' questions will be five minutes in order of seniority. Again, thank you both for agreeing to step forward. I look forward to your testimony. And I now recognize the distinguished Vice Chairman. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARCO RUBIO, A U.S. SENATOR FROM FLORIDA Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank both of our nominees for being here today, for their willingness to serve in these critical capacities. I also want to join the Chairman in thanking Ms. Ashton's husband, Ms. Abizaid's wife, for your willingness to also be supportive of this. We all know these jobs involve the strong support of family in that regard. And so we're grateful to all of you for your willingness to step forward and your enthusiasm for the roles that you're about to fulfill, if confirmed. Let me just say, on Director Coats, I told him this earlier when I saw him. I said he looked substantially more relaxed and much better than he did the last time we had him sitting at that table a couple years ago. So life is good. And we're always happy to see you around again. We have tremendous respect for you and everyone on the Committee that served with you does. The National Counterterrorism Center was established obviously after 9/11 to ensure better communication and coordination among the agencies by analyzing and integrating all the intelligence possessed or acquired by our government pertaining to terrorism and to counterterrorism. A key in that language--and that threat remains, even now--as Ms. Abizaid and I had a brief conversation about this. Even now, as we focus on the growing great power competition, we cannot forget that the threat from terrorism remains and exists. My own home state of Florida has been impacted by it both in Pensacola and almost five years ago today in Orlando, Florida. So we know that this continues to be an ongoing threat. It's an important enterprise. But it's interesting that--and as we read through the language that created it--it's very clear that it pertains to terrorism and counterterrorism, accepting intelligence pertaining exclusively to domestic terrorists and domestic counterterrorism. And that's an important topic for two reasons, number one, because we do have a domestic terror problem of individuals who've been radicalized and take action, and that needs to be confronted. I don't know of anyone who would dispute that. The question is, what role do our foreign-geared intelligence agencies play in that regard? Because as we've discussed, you know, some of the more troubling moments in the history of our intelligence agencies has been when they've been turned against a solely domestic threat. So it's a balancing act we're going to have to work through. And I know there'll be some questions about that. Remaining focused on that mission is particularly important, because I said that the counterterrorism threat is there and that work continues, needs to continue to happen. Ms. Ashton, I look forward to hearing about how you'll lead the IG's office and your vision for a productive and beneficial working relationship with this Committee. Our oversight role and your role that you've been nominated to fill, they share a lot of the same goals. And so as I expressed to you when we met, I think one of the most important things this Committee always aspires to is, particularly when a complaint rises to a level of significance that we should learn about, it's important for this Committee to know about that. And I think you'll find that in that regard this is a Committee that takes its oversight role very seriously in matters that could undermine the important work that occurs at the Agency. So, again, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here. We look forward to hearing your testimony and your answers to our questions. Chairman Warner. Thank you, Senator Rubio. I now recognize the distinguished former Member of this Committee and former Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats for his statement. STATEMENT OF HON. DAN COATS, A FORMER U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF INDIANA, AND FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE Senator Coats. Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you very much for the introduction of me. It is an honor for me to be here today to introduce Robin Ashton as President Biden's nominee for the position of Inspector General at the Central Intelligence Agency. Given my previous membership on this Committee, in term as Director of National Intelligence, I'm keenly aware of the key role played by Inspectors General. I want to say to my colleagues, though, it's nice to be back. As a private citizen, I want you to know that any interactions or conversations that we have had while I was a Member of the Committee will be classified for as long as I live. I just want to assure people here. But it's fun to be back here with you. And I do think that it was much easier being up there than a witness down here. Robin is someone that I think is an extraordinary individual with an extraordinary background. And if you have had the opportunity to look through her professional employment as a public servant, it is remarkable. Her journey is amazing. And if you haven't had the chance to read it--I'm sure your staff has--but I urge you to. If you have any questions about her qualities and capabilities, look through what she has accomplished in her life, which is extraordinary. I would like to spend just a moment or two discussing my personal experience working with Robin during her time as Deputy IC IG. Robin played a very important role in proving the functioning of the IC IG office in her time there. Furthermore, she demonstrated exactly the characteristics desired in an Inspector General. Her first and foremost priority was always to promote the efficient operation of the ODNI and the broader Intelligence Community. She worked collaboratively with me and my senior leaders and the team to identify and correct issues related to the ODNI. Of course, there's often some tension between agencies and their Inspector Generals. And Robin was never afraid to challenge me and my team when she felt there were areas where we should be doing more to ensure the proper functioning of the ODNI and the IC. I always felt that she approached every issue in an honest and fair way, with the best interests of the ODNI Intelligence Community at heart. And given my experience with working with her and her exceptional capabilities, I have no doubt that should she be confirmed her integrity, professionalism, and independence to perform her duties of the CIA Inspector General will be done with distinction. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this exceptional nominee for CIA Inspector General. Chairman Warner. Well, thank you, Director Coats. Senator Rubio and I were talking that the last time I believe you testified before this Committee, you did it with such straightforwardness and forthrightness that you very soon lost your job. So I hope your testimony today does not result in the same actions now that you're back as a private citizen. But, Dan, it is always great to see you. You know, as an alumnus of this Committee that you are somebody who we all have enormous respect for, both from your time on the Committee, but particularly for your steadfast role as DNI. We thank you for your service. And it's great, great to see you. Thank you, Sir. Senator Coats. Thank you. Chairman Warner. I now ask unanimous consent that the letters of support for the nominees received by the Committee be entered into the record. [No response.] Without objection. [Letters of support for the Witnesses follow:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] With that, we'll proceed to administering the oath. Will the witnesses please stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to give this Committee the truth, the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Ms. Abizaid. Yes. Ms. Ashton. I do. Chairman Warner. Please be seated. Before we move to your opening statements, I'll ask you to answer five standard questions the Committee poses to each nominee who appears before us. They require a simple yes or no for the record. First, do you agree to appear before the Committee here or in other venues when invited? Ms. Abizaid. Yes. Ms. Ashton. I do. Chairman Warner. If confirmed, do you agree to send officials from your office to appear before the Committee and designated staff when invited? Ms. Abizaid. Yes. Ms. Ashton. Yes. Chairman Warner. Do you agree to provide documents or any other materials requested by the Committee in order for it to carry out its oversight and legislative responsibilities? Ms. Abizaid. Yes. Ms. Ashton. Yes. Chairman Warner. Will you ensure that your office and your staff provide such materials to the Committee when requested? Ms. Abizaid. Yes. Ms. Ashton. Yes. Chairman Warner. Do you agree to inform and fully brief to the fullest extent possible all Members of this Committee of intelligence activities and covert actions, rather than only the Chairman and Vice Chairman? Ms. Abizaid. Yes. Ms. Ashton. Yes. Chairman Warner. Thank you very much. We'll now proceed to your opening statements, after which I'll recognize Members by seniority for up to five minutes each. Ms. Ashton, are you going first? Ms. Ashton. Yes, Sir. STATEMENT OF ROBIN ASHTON, NOMINEE TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY Ms. Ashton. Good afternoon. Chairman Warner, Vice Chairman Rubio, and Members of the Intelligence Committee, it is an honor to appear before you as President Biden's nominee to be the Inspector General of the Central Intelligence Agency. I am grateful to President Biden for placing his trust and confidence in me to lead this important office. If confirmed, I would be honored to work with all of you and with the courageous, hard-working, and remarkable people of the CIA, including Director Burns and Deputy Director Cohen. I will strive each day to justify the trust placed in me and to uphold the highest standards of the office. I am also deeply grateful to Dan Coats for his generous introduction. His long history of dedicated public service is not only impressive, but truly inspiring. I would like to recognize my family and friends who are here today or watching remotely, especially my husband of 26 years, Dr. Yves Rosenberg, my children, Jack and Juliette Rosenberg, and my sister, Ann Riopelle. The love and support of my family and friends has been invaluable to me over the years, as they have taught me through their examples how to weather the bad times and cherish the good. As noted in my pre-hearing materials, I have spent nearly 35 years in public service, holding numerous positions across both Republican and Democratic administrations, including as a Federal prosecutor working in the U.S. Attorney's office in the District of Columbia, as the Director of the Department of Justice's Office of Professional Responsibility, and as the Principal Deputy Inspector General of the Intelligence Community. Over the course of my career, I have had the privilege of serving alongside hard-working Federal employees in numerous capacities, the administrative and personnel staffs, lawyers and paralegals, agents and law enforcement officers, investigators and analysts, as well as those who clean the offices and work in the cafeterias, security personnel, and countless others. They all come to work day after day knowing that they will probably never be publicly recognized for their tireless efforts. They work hard not for recognition, but because they derive satisfaction from working on a shared mission. After 35 years, I am still inspired by these dedicated public servants whom I am so fortunate to call my friends, my colleagues, and my mentors. Their honorable service and countless acts of kindness toward me and others have taught me how to be a better public servant and a better person. I know that the brave officers of the CIA have also demonstrated this extraordinary and selfless commitment to public service, and I would be honored to work with them. However, when you review my resume and hear me speak about my decades-long career as a lawyer in the Federal Government, you cannot fully glean who I am as a person. Before I could embark on my rewarding legal career, I first had to work my way through both college and law school by holding numerous, often grueling jobs, as an assembly line worker with the Ford Motor Company in the Detroit area, as a waitress, and as a custodian working the night shift at the University of Michigan Hospital. These tough jobs taught me a number of valuable lessons about hard work and respecting those who do these demanding jobs every day, perhaps the most significant being that someone punching the clock at the start of a long shift or wearing a waitress's or custodian's uniform deserves the same level of respect as everyone else, if not more. These experiences have impacted every part of my life, my way of thinking, and the way I view myself and my responsibility toward others. Living paycheck to paycheck also taught me that the tax dollars of hard-working Americans should not be squandered. I therefore believe that Inspectors General hold some of the most important positions in the Federal Government. It is through their efforts that waste, fraud, and abuse, as well as mismanagement, abuses of authority, and unlawful practices can be and are detected and prevented and systemic solutions can be and are found. If confirmed, I will treat my responsibility to identify and prevent waste, fraud, and abuse with the seriousness it deserves. I will highlight the CIA's incredible strengths, while also identifying areas that could benefit from modification or improvement. I sincerely believe that the American people desire and deserve a government that is effective and accountable. It is important to acknowledge the critical role whistleblowers play in ensuring a responsible and honest government. They are often the first people to witness or learn about wasteful practices or possible wrongdoing. Because members of the Intelligence Community must work in a classified environment in which information about intelligence programs and activities is not available for public review, their duty and ability to lawfully disclose information regarding potential wrongdoing is critical to the oversight process. I know this Committee supports whistleblowers. If confirmed, I commit to ensuring that the CIA continues to have an effective whistleblower program. Those who demonstrate the personal ethics and moral courage to bring concerns forward must not fear or suffer from reprisal for speaking up. I deeply respect this Committee's important oversight role. I appreciated the opportunity to meet with many of you before this hearing so that I could answer your questions, listen to your concerns, and learn from your insights. If confirmed, I pledge to work with this and other intelligence oversight committees in an open and productive way as we engage in our shared effort to ensure continued efficiency, effectiveness, and accountability in the programs and activities of the CIA. I am truly honored to be here today. Thank you for your consideration of my nomination. I look forward to answering your questions. [The prepared statement of Ms. Ashton follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Warner. Thank you, Ms. Ashton. Ms. Abizaid, before I call on you, I should note that, when we agreed to commit for the record letter of recommendation, Ms. Abizaid has received endorsements from four prior NCTC directors, which I'd urge Committee Members to review. Ma'am? STATEMENT OF CHRISTINE ABIZAID, NOMINEE TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER Ms. Abizaid. Chairman Warner, Vice Chairman Rubio, Members of the Committee, it is a privilege to appear before you today to be considered for the role of Director of the National Counterterrorism Center. I am both honored and humbled by this opportunity to return to government service, the Intelligence Community, and the counterterrorism field. I want to thank President Biden and Director Haines for their confidence in my ability to lead the center and to help steer the United States' counterterrorism enterprise at this critical stage. I want to especially thank my wife for her love and support. Without her encouragement, I would not be here today. If I am fortunate enough to be confirmed, the burden of keeping our lives running smoothly will fall more squarely on her shoulders even as she pursues her own demanding career. To our son, what your future holds is in its own way motivation to serve again. We will raise you to value sacrifice for your countrymen just as we both were raised. Along those lines, I would like to recognize my family for being such a compelling example of public service. My father served for more than 30 years as an officer in the United States Army and later as a diplomat. Growing up, I was always proud of him and the uniform that he wore. But it was not until I began my own career at the Defense Intelligence Agency that I got to know my father by his professional reputation, as the highly decorated, deeply respected, brilliant, and battle-tested soldier that he is. My mother also served as an Army and State Department spouse. Her ability to navigate the everyday chaos of Army life with calm, optimism, and grit was an inspiration to me. She is the foundation of our close-knit family. The example she and my father set for me and my siblings encouraged our own forms of service. My brother enlisted in the Army after high school, and 9/11 was supposed to be his first day of boot camp. And I stand in awe of my sister's resilience as an Army wife in the post-9/11 era. She and her husband, an Army officer and Ranger, have been separated by near constant deployment cycles since 2001. While he commands on the front lines, she leads on the home front, guiding and inspiring Ranger families in addition to her own. For my own part, my years of government service were squarely rooted in the attacks on 9/11. And while it has been several years since I was last part of the CT community, even from the outside, it is clear that the terrorist threat to Americans and U.S. interests persists. This is not to say it is unchanged. It has evolved significantly in the last two decades. The threat from groups like Al Qaida and the Islamic state is in some ways diminished, but it is also more diffuse, active across an ever broadening geographic terrain. These groups appear less organized against the homeland, but also more technologically sophisticated, leveraging social media platforms to widen their appeal. Meanwhile, the threat from other terrorist elements remains urgent, whether posed by domestic violent extremists, Iranian- sponsored proxies, racially motivated terrorists, or others, we must not lose sight of the diversity of the threats that confront the United States. Now, while terrorism does remain a challenge, I believe our country's ability to address it is unmatched. Reforms after 9/ 11, including those led by Members of this Committee, created a counterterrorism and homeland security enterprise that is agile, collaborative, and proactive in mitigating threats to the United States. In particular, the creation of the National Counterterrorism Center in 2004 institutionalized the integration of CT-related intelligence and has since been a key enabler of the United States' ability to holistically address the evolving threats to our interests. American citizens, they have done their part, too. I believe today we are a country more resilient in the face of terrorism than at any time in our history. This mature CT capability is even more important at a time of heightened strategic competition, especially related to China, rising cybersecurity threats, and a technological revolution that will present both challenges and opportunities. It is in this environment that the counterterrorism capability we have invested in so steadfastly over the years must be both effective and efficient in protecting our country. And this is doubly true for an organization like NCTC, purpose-built to prevent, detect, and deter threats to the United States. In closing, I would like to acknowledge the great contribution of all of our national security professionals, but especially those at the National Counterterrorism Center. It would be a distinct honor to lead the men and women who make up the center who have so selflessly devoted their lives to protecting the Nation and who have asked for their family's support in doing so. If confirmed as their director, I commit to doing everything in my power to ensure these public servants have the tools and capabilities necessary to succeed. I further commit to ensuring that NCTC fulfills its duty to protect the United States with the utmost integrity and a deep appreciation for the trust that has been placed in it by the American people. Finally, I commit to working with this Committee, among others, to keep Congress fully and currently informed of the center's activities so that you can discharge your critical oversight responsibilities on behalf of the Nation. Thank you again for this opportunity to appear before you today. I look forward to your questions. [The prepared statement of Ms. Abizaid follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Warner. Thank you both. For planning purposes, any Members of the Committee who wish to submit questions for the record after today's hearing, please do so by 5 p.m. this Friday, June 11th. And then we'll be recognizing Members for five minutes in order of seniority. Ms. Ashton, first of all, again, I enjoyed our time visiting. And appreciated your presentation both in terms of your background and obviously your caring for your colleagues. And I think that's part of the role of the IG is to not only ferret out waste and abuse, but be that independent voice that can listen to your colleagues should they see inappropriate behavior. I was going to ask you a question about the role of whistleblowers, but the truth is you've already shown your protection and your willingness to stand up for whistleblowers. As a matter of fact, that also cost you your job as a Principal Deputy IG over the last few years. So I have great faith in your commitment to the whistleblower program. So my question, instead, is we've not had a Senate- confirmed IG at the CIA for seven years. There are concerns particularly from the last administration about a White House that often ignored the recommendations of the intel community. And with as much specificity as possible, recognizing you haven't got into this job yet, what steps can you take to both restore the morale and that sense of purpose of the workforce at the Agency and within specifically the Office of the IG? Ms. Ashton. Well, thank you, Senator Warner. It was a distinct pleasure for me to be able to meet with you the other day. And I enjoyed our discussion very much. And I appreciated your insights on a number of topics. I was able when I was the Principal Deputy Inspector General for the Intelligence Community to meet many people in the CIA. And I felt very fortunate to be able to work with them on a lot of different projects. So I very much look forward, if I'm confirmed, to being able to meet the people in the Office of the Inspector General. And I very much look forward to establishing a relationship with them that I think is so important, because I think that I have to lead by example, so that when they come to me with concerns inside of the Office of Inspector General, I listen to them and I allow dissent and I allow them to be heard. So, first, I have to establish that kind of trustful relationship with my own people. I might be viewed as somewhat of an outsider because I spent most of my career in the Department of Justice, but I found that when I came to the Intelligence Community for the first time and started my role as the Principal Deputy Inspector General for the Intelligence Community, the people there were so welcoming. They allowed me to enter their world, which was quite new for me, and they helped me learn from them. And I think that'll be very important when I go, if I'm confirmed to the Inspector General's office for CIA, that I let them know I want to learn from them. Many of these people that I will be working with, if I'm confirmed, have spent their whole careers in the CIA. And I will respect that. I will look forward to working with them and learning from them. And I also just think that it's so crucial when you're talking about morale to let people know how much I personally respect what they've done with their lives, what they're doing, what their mission is, and that I will always defend them when they are doing the right thing and working so hard and tirelessly. I will protect them and defend them in appropriate ways. Another thing that I've done that really helped morale-- actually, it wasn't me doing it--but the Inspector General and I invited people, for example, from this Committee to speak to our employees at the Inspector General's Office. And for example, Senator King spoke at one of our biggest conferences, hundreds of people from the Intelligence Community, and we had a senator from this Committee speaking to them, and it meant so much to people, because that message of what you do is important to us. We're joined as partners in the oversight process. That resonated and it meant a lot to the people. And another thing is that Mr. Coats, as the Director of National Intelligence, came and spoke to our people, as well, and again emphasized how important the partnership is between leadership in the Agency itself and with these people in the Office of Inspector General. So I think all of these things are important in establishing a good morale. But if I'm confirmed, if I'm so fortunate to be confirmed, I look forward to working with the amazingly gifted and talented people of the CIA. Chairman Warner. Thank you, ma'am. And, Ms. Abizaid, I will get you on the next round. Senator Rubio? Vice Chairman Rubio. Well, Ms. Abizaid, we had an opportunity to talk about this. It's a tricky issue, right, because of this domestic violent extremist issue. I don't think there's any dispute that these people out there--they're dressed up like GI Joe and they think they're going to go out and attack people in the political class or storm the Capitol or any other government building. I don't think anyone would dispute they should be arrested for that. They should be put in jail. You know, my concern, obviously, is any time, if you look at the history of the Intelligence Community, some of its most troubling moments are when our intelligence capabilities were used to target Americans. And both Republican and Democratic presidents did that, unfortunately. And in fact, that some of that led to the inception and the creation of this very Committee. So the situation I'm really concerned about--and seeing these lines blurred is a situation in which you have people or an individual that's based and is operating in the United States, no direction, no inspiration from a foreign terror group or a foreign power, and they seek to further their political or social goals through violence or force or things that are not, you know, protected speech and so forth. In your mind, that clearly--what I've just described-- they're operating in the United States, they're not taking direction or inspiration from a foreign power or foreign terror group, and obviously they're furthering their goals through violence. In your mind, is that in or outside the purview of the job you've been nominated to serve? Ms. Abizaid. Thank you for the question, Senator. And we did have a chance to discuss this. And I appreciated the time and hearing your views on that. But this is squarely in the purview of the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security. NCTC's role, in my view, would be one of support to those agencies as they take the lead in the homeland on domestic violent extremist threats. Now, NCTC was granted some unique authorities to have access to both foreign and domestic intelligence around terrorist threats so that we are able to connect the dots. I mean, that was fundamentally the reason for NCTC's founding to be able to connect the dots, integrate intelligence from multiple sources, and ensure we don't miss that very important nexus to a foreign power or foreign terrorist organizations. So, you know, NCTC's role here is an important role to play. When it is purely domestic terrorism, it should be playing it in support of those lead agencies in the Federal Government, the FBI and DHS. And I share your concerns about the rise in domestic violent extremism. I also share your concerns that we appropriately leverage IC resources in a way that protects privacies and civil liberties. So that's an important balance to strike. And I look forward, if confirmed, to making sure that we're doing that. Vice Chairman Rubio. Now, it gets a little bit more complicated now. And again, I'm not asking these as strict questions. It's to highlights sort of the balancing act here and how this can get problematic in a hurry, because, for example, as I said to you, we shouldn't lack imagination in thinking that a foreign adversary could see the existence of these groups and figure out a way to use a third party to funnel money to them, because it helps them to weaken us domestically. So in that sense, it's something we want to be aware of. So we're coming up on the anniversary of the shooting at Pulse. This was an individual that had not traveled, was not in a terrorist training camp, but clearly was inspired, and said so, by ISIS and Al Qaida. So putting that example aside, which is I think pretty clear-cut, sometimes these individuals in their rants claim to be part of a global movement, anti- globalization movement. Or they're not a member of any group. They're not interacting with anybody directly, but they think they're part of a broader movement. That's a little bit cloudier. I know it's more of a legal interpretation, but in your mind, does the fact that someone thinks they're part of some sort of a global movement, that they're not a member of--not a membership card or going to meetings of this nature--but just seem to think that they're part of a broader effort globally, does that rise to the level of turning it into a domestic violent extremist group that you would have input on? Ms. Abizaid. So, Senator, I think you're raising exactly some of the complexities that we're going to need to work through. But, I mean, ideological alignment with something that you believe is a global movement does not in and of itself make it a foreign terrorist threat. Obviously, it would all be the particulars of the case. And being aligned to an ideological movement that is something that has protected speech, that's not something that would be in the purview of NCTC's concern. I think the way that I have understood Director Wray to consider this is if you're engaged in violence against the United States and its citizens, then that is what makes you the target of interest to the FBI, to DHS, and for those of us that care about the security of Americans and inside the United States. And that would be--the focus is the violent behavior, the violent activity that that we seek to thwart. Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you. Chairman Warner. Senator Wyden? Senator Wyden. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Ashton, we very much appreciate your record of the courage that you've expressed in the past. And as you and I talked about, the CIA has an unfortunate history of striking back at its own Inspector General. Director Hayden did this in response to the Inspector General's investigation of torture. Director Brennan did this after the Inspector General investigated the CIA's spying on this Committee. Can you assure us this afternoon that this history will not influence what you choose to review or how you choose to review it? Ms. Ashton. Thank you, Senator Wyden, for that very good conversation that we had the other day. I learned a lot from you about that history, and it was very interesting to me. I hadn't known all of those details, to tell you the truth. But I can assure this Committee that the way I have practiced law for the last 35 years and the way I've handled my career for the last 35 years, mostly as a prosecutor, trying some of the toughest cases that you can try, and when I was at the Office of Professional Responsibility where I was in a somewhat sensitive situation where I was the Director of the Office of Professional Responsibility, which was responsible for deciding whether assistant U.S. attorneys and the agents working with them had committed misconduct or engaged in any kind of illegal or unlawful practices, whether they should be disciplined, whether they should be fired. All of those positions and others that I've had required great strength and independence and the ability and the willingness to look at facts and follow the facts, analyze those facts, and if they lead, wherever they lead, you go to that conclusion, that place, without any kind of partiality, bias, or thinking about what happened to prior Inspectors General, for example. I will not do that. I will focus on the facts and I will analyze them and act appropriately on those facts. But I will not be intimidated by what has happened to my predecessors, because that would just take my eye off the important ball. And the important thing, the goal that we are trying to achieve here is to achieve effective oversight. I will be a partner with this Committee in that effort. And I will not be distracted by what might have happened to my predecessors. Senator Wyden. I was impressed by your past record, and your exemplary statement today is consistent with it. And I look forward to supporting your nomination. Ms. Ashton. Thank you. Senator Wyden. I have a question for Ms. Abizaid. Ms. Abizaid, less than three months ago, the National Counterterrorism Center released its own 12333 procedures related to when it can collect, retain, and search for information on Americans. For example, the Agency can collect, quote, ``publicly available information.'' Do you believe that includes commercially available data? And if so, do you believe that the Center should be intentionally purchasing the personal data of Americans? Ms. Abizaid. Thank you very much, Senator, for the question. I'm generally aware of the issue. I haven't engaged in it deeply just because I haven't been in the Intelligence Community here for the last recent years. That's my understanding on this particular issue. Director Haines has also recognized the complexity here and committed to working with this Committee to develop a framework that should guide Intelligence Community procedures, including those of NCTC, on this very important issue. You know, if I am confirmed, I would commit to working closely with her and with Members of this Committee, with you in particular, to make sure that we're striking the right balance related to that framework. Senator Wyden. All right. I'll have some additional questions for the record for you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Warner. Senator Burr? Senator Burr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to both of our nominees today. I enjoyed the time that we've spent together. Mr. Chairman, let me just say, these are two excellent nominees. And I would hope that the Committee would move expeditiously at confirming these two nominees. We desperately need them in the jobs. We need them there today. I've got a question for each of you. Christine, I've got to say, I'm not sure whether you're showing your strength in accepting this nomination or your intelligence, given that you've got a 15-month-old at home. I'll let your wife determine which one you're exercising there. But having raised them and now with three grandchildren, I'm like Dan Coats. I spend a little more time away from them than I need to. Christine, here's my question. What are your plans about right-sizing NCTC? And how do you make sure that you've got the talent that you need there to perform the mission? Ms. Abizaid. Thank you, Senator. I think it's a really important question. And, yes, I am deliberately trying to miss the terrible twos by accepting this opportunity. You know, when I look at the role of the National Counterterrorism Center, it is absolutely essential that it's got the right expertise. And the right expertise is not just those cadre that are hired directly into ODNI and into the center, but it's the expertise that is provided across the community, that we've got a robust counterterrorism community. It's one that at the center, when you mix CIA analysts with FBI analysts with DIA analysts with NCTC analysts, you get the best interagency perspective about what's happening in the world. You get the best ability to communicate across silos in the Federal Government. And I think it's what makes the National Counterterrorism Center excellent at what it does. So I think that will be a really important piece if confirmed as its director, for me to look into, understand the manning, understand where there are holes, if there are any, and then work with my partners across the counterterrorism enterprise to make sure that we're doing what we can to staff it appropriately. When I think about the kind of efficiencies that we in the counterterrorism enterprise are going to need to consider, especially as resources are limited and priorities are broad across the national security portfolio, I think the effective use of the Center, investing in it as the place where we narrowly focus on counterterrorism, is going to be to the good of the entire Intelligence Community. Senator Burr. Great, thanks. Robin, your role--it sort of requires you to straddle a really tricky line. You need to be independent, but to be successful, the IG needs to know what's going on in the agencies. How do you plan to balance your office's independent role with the need to engage the Agency community? Ms. Ashton. Well, thank you so much for that wonderful question. And I did appreciate speaking with you at length last week. It was a very good conversation, and I appreciated your time. But the question's so important, because of course the need to balance the independence of the Office of Inspector General while also working collaboratively at most times with the Agency itself, it's an important balance to strike. And sometimes, like you just suggested, it can be difficult. But when I was working at the Inspector General's Office for the Intelligence Community, I believe that the Inspector General and I were able to achieve that balance by doing a lot of outreach events and meetings and training sessions, getting to know as many people in the ODNI as we could, working quite collaboratively and effectively with leadership whenever we could. Often leadership, such as Mr. Coats, would ask us for our insights about what should be looked at or how things might be looked at, perhaps for our opinions on policy changes or needs, and we appreciated all of those opportunities to give our insights based on what we were doing with our wonderful auditors and analysts and investigators and others, based on the information we were able to gather, how could we help them make the best decisions they could make? And so ours was one of the voices that they listened to. And we seized on all of those opportunities to work with the ODNI itself whenever we could in a collaborative way. I don't view the Inspector General as somebody who just comes in with bad news or a ``gotcha'' moment. I don't think that that's effective at all. We have to understand that the leadership also wants the very best for its agency. And if we come at it with that view and try to help make it more effective, then I think we can work collaboratively, but always mindful that in the end the Inspector General and her office needs to be independent of the Agency, so that if we find things that are not working well or if we find even mismanagement or unlawful practices, we have to be independent of the leadership and the Agency and be able to speak out and do the right thing based on the facts that we compile in our inspections and audits, et cetera. Chairman Warner. Senator King? Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I want to welcome our old friend Dan Coats, and what a pleasure it is to see you. And you were a distinguished Senator, but I think you were an even more distinguished Director of National Intelligence, because you showed what honesty and courage in public service looks like. And I've quoted you probably a hundred times on the mission of the intelligence agency. To me, you gave the most succinct definition, which is to seek the truth and tell the truth. And that's exactly what you did. So I want to thank you, Senator Coats, Director Coats, for your service. Ms. Ashton, normally I spend time with IG nominees talking about independence just as we have done today. I don't think that's really necessary with you, because you've proved it. You showed that you have both the independence and the courage to do the right thing, to meet the obligations of the job. I just would note that it occurs to me that the IG in a clandestine agency is incredibly important. IGs, I think, are some of the most important jobs in our government, but in a secret agency, it's even more important, because nobody else is watching. And they don't have the level of public scrutiny that might occur for the Department of the Interior, the Department of Energy, the Department of Agriculture. So this job is especially weighty in its responsibility. Your job is to be a flea on the dog of the CIA and that means bite them every now and then, and hold them to the highest level of ethical and legal standards. Ms. Abizaid, in terms of terrorism, my greatest nightmare is not terrorists who get through on an airplane or something like that. It's a terrorist organization that gets hold of a nuclear weapon, whether by development in this technologically advanced age or by purchase from a rogue state. Talk to me about how we can deter. We have nuclear deterrence for nation-states. Deterrence doesn't work for somebody who would just as soon give up their life. So how do we protect ourselves from that nightmare scenario? Ms. Abizaid. Thank you, Senator. I share the concern. I think all of us, especially in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, were terribly concerned about the possibility of terrorists having access to weapons of mass destruction. Senator King. Those people killed 3,000 people. They would have killed 3 million if they could have. Ms. Abizaid. Absolutely. And it's absolutely essential that this is an area where the experts in nuclear security, the experts in nonproliferation and counter-proliferation, and the experts in counterterrorism need to work across their different areas of expertise and make sure that we're sharing information, assessing threats, and doing everything we can with the highest degree of priority to deter terrorist access to these kinds of weapons of mass destruction. Senator King. I would submit that one of our first lines of defense is intelligence. Ms. Abizaid. Absolutely. Senator King. Knowing where this material is, being able to detect how it's being transported, and where it might end up. So I urge you to pay attention to the nonproliferation regime, because this is such a dangerous threat to our country. Afghanistan-Pakistan--we're in the process of withdrawing. It's been an important counterterrorism base for us over the years. Can we maintain the counterterrorism function in that region without a military presence in Afghanistan? And if so, how? Ms. Abizaid. So this is something that, if I'm confirmed, is going to be one of my early questions and early priorities going into the job. I think that that is absolutely the most important thing that the Intelligence Community develop a strategy for and an approach to, given the withdrawal of U.S. forces from the region. There will be a diminishment in intelligence collection in the region, no doubt, given the lower footprint from the United States, but determining what kind of over-the-horizon capabilities there are, what kind of access to source networks, et cetera, that's got to be a priority, given the myriad of threats that already exist in the region and our number-one focus being ensuring that that region doesn't become a platform for transnational threats again. Senator King. Is that a danger? That we went in, in the first place to eliminate it as a safe haven for terrorists? Now we're going to be gone. How do we keep from being in 2001 all over again? Ms. Abizaid. Well, Senator, I think anywhere that we see a significant terrorist presence, there is a danger of that becoming some kind of platform to threaten the homeland from. And I think that that's always the number-one priority of CT analysts, of the counterterrorism community, is to monitor and assess at what point, you know, we see external plotting from various regions. I think that that is true for the AFPAK region just as it is true for Iraq-Syria, for North Africa, and various other areas, where both an ISIS and Al Qaida presence in particular remain. And so how we deter it is the way that we've deterred it for years, which is relentless pressure against threats to our interests. Senator King. And that relentless pressure has to continue. Just because we've pivoted toward near-peer competition does not mean terrorism is entirely in the rearview mirror, is that correct? Ms. Abizaid. I couldn't agree more, Sir. Senator King. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Warner. Senator Blunt? Senator Blunt. Thank you, Chairman. Ms. Abizaid, obviously one of the purposes of NCTC was to integrate all the terrorist data and analyze it and be sure it doesn't get into that phrase we used so often after 9/11, which was stove piped. But there's so much data out there now. And you've got great experience in this technical field. What do we need to be doing to support your efforts in this job, assuming you're confirmed--and I hope you will be--to help provide the resources you need for that. That rapid analyzing, the machine learning, the AI effort to get this down to where a person needs to look at it and to know what they need to look at on any given day? Ms. Abizaid. Senator, thanks for the question. We were able to discuss this briefly when we met, and I appreciate your time and the time spent on this topic in particular. I mentioned in my opening remarks that the technological revolution that we're in presents both challenges and opportunities for us in the counterterrorism world. If confirmed, I'd seek to exploit those opportunities from big data management, artificial intelligence, machine learning. Looking at how those technologies apply to the vast amounts of data that we need to process effectively and efficiently at the National Counterterrorism Center. How can those be best applied to our holdings and create a speed to act against a threat that we all are so focused on every day? So I don't know exactly how. I haven't gotten into the Center to actually dig into the technologies that we're leveraging today and the technological roadmap that we need to apply. But I think modernization of the IT infrastructure, thinking through fundamentals of the NCTC data lake and how we exploit that data most effectively, while also I think importantly building in some of the protections, the privacy and civil liberty protections, Constitutional protections that can be technologically achieved on the front end of design. All of that I think will be really important when we're thinking about how to modernize the system. Senator Blunt. I think this is one of those areas where if our adversaries get a significant breakthrough at any given moment, we could get way behind in a hurry. And we don't want to get way behind in a hurry. I'd also say that when we were in the process of putting this agency together after 9/11, I think we thought that NCTC would be a pretty lean staff organization. It's about a thousand people now. I'd like to hear your thoughts about what kind of zero-based approach you might be willing to take to go back and look at those thousand jobs and see if actually it's gotten so big you could get information isolated in the Agency that's supposed to be sharing all the information with other agencies. Ms. Abizaid. I appreciate the concern, Senator. And I think it's an important thing for any director to consider along the way. Manning challenges but while ensuring that you've got the necessary expertise across the Center is going to be an essential balance to strike. And I do think, as I mentioned, that technology can play a role in addressing some of the number of staff that we might need, though I don't want to get ahead of myself since I haven't had a chance to really review the roles, the responsibilities, across the Agency. But I would commit to you, Sir, that if confirmed, this would be something that I would certainly prioritize and look at. Senator Blunt. And share with us, I would hope. Ms. Abizaid. Absolutely. Senator Blunt. Ms. Ashton, I will say, when our good friend, Senator and then Director Coats, said you were never afraid to challenge the team, that was obviously an important thing for an IG anywhere, and probably particularly in the job we're talking about. But you know, there's a specific waiver, as I would read it, for the CIA IG if the CIA comes to you and says we really think it's better if you don't look too closely at this, or later might say you've looked at it, now we think it's better if you don't share it, can you imagine a circumstance where you might ever use that 50 USC 403 statute that is, I think, largely unique to the CIA? Ms. Ashton. Thank you. Thank you, Senator, for that question. Yes, I am familiar with the statute, 50 USC 403, and it does allow the director to step in and indicate that because of a vital national security concern, he can step in and say, ``I do not want you to continue with an investigation or an audit or a matter. I don't want you to conclude it. I don't want you to issue a report,'' and things of that nature. It's pretty specific. If the Director does that, my understanding is that he would contact this Committee and file either a report or a statement or file a letter and that will be provided to me, as well. I would have an opportunity to comment on that. And I would also do that to the Committee. So I do understand that that could happen. And I can imagine a circumstance where the Director says, based on information he has that I might not have, that there's a national security issue at stake and that I might have to hold off or stop altogether an activity. I think that would be very rare. The statute seems to indicate that it's considered a very rare occurrence. But, yes, I can imagine that it would happen. Senator Blunt. But, in fact, if that happened, you'd insist on notification as the statute anticipates and the ability to even comment on that notification to this Committee? Ms. Ashton. Exactly. Senator Blunt. All right. Thank you, Chairman. Vice Chairman Rubio. Senator Heinrich, are you ready? Senator Gillibrand. Senator Gillibrand is on WebEx. Vice Chairman Rubio. Senator Heinrich, go ahead. Senator Heinrich. Is Senator Gillibrand in front of me? Vice Chairman Rubio. It's by seniority. Senator Gillibrand. I'm available, but, Martin, I think you're ahead of me if you're there. Vice Chairman Rubio. I have been going by seniority at the gavel; so, Senator Heinrich? Senator Heinrich. Ms. Ashton, as you know perhaps better than most, the IG community came under quite a bit of pressure during the last Administration. And you and the Intelligence Community IG at the time, Michael Atkinson, spoke truth to power and were fired for it. What you and Mr. Atkinson did in the fall of 2019 to protect a key whistleblower and get information to Congress cost you your jobs. Going forward, I simply want to make sure that the Intelligence Community IGs are better protected from political pressure and retaliation and that their independence can be assured. Should you be confirmed, will you commit to sharing with this Committee any recommendations that you might have for legislative reforms to strengthen the CIA IG office and to make sure that you can do that job independently? Ms. Ashton. Absolutely, Senator. I very much appreciate the commitment to whistleblowers that you and others in this Committee have shown for so many years. It was very important, during the matter that you just referred to, that many people on this Committee came forward and made very supportive comments about the whistleblower's right to be heard. I will definitely work with this Committee and share the insights that I gained through the process that we went through so that perhaps proposals can be put in place or new legislation can be put in place to enhance the protections afforded whistleblowers, Inspectors General, and the people who support the whistleblowers. Because a lot of times it's not just the whistleblower coming forward; it's the people who corroborate the whistleblower's complaint or statement. And they, too, could suffer from reprisal or threats of reprisal. And we don't want that to happen. We want to open the lines of communication so employees can come forward and share their concerns in a legitimate, lawful, classified way. And I would be very happy, because I care so fervently about this process, to work with this Committee and others, who are coming up right now with very good proposals for enhancing whistleblowers' protections. Senator Heinrich. I think you just brought up a really, really key point, which is this is a Committee that I'm very proud to say has a history of not being the source of many of the things that we read in the papers around here. And having that official classified process is part of how we avoid those kinds of problems, isn't it? Ms. Ashton. Exactly, Senator. It's such an important process. And the reason you all passed the legislation that put that process in place is to ensure that very kind of communication. Can people in the classified Intelligence Community come forward in a lawful way so that there aren't leaks? You know, when people get too frustrated, they might leak information. We don't want that to happen. And I think the statute is quite brilliant, because it creates a process, an appropriate process and a very, very clear process, for bringing concerns forward but not leaking information. We don't want that kind of unauthorized disclosure. We want people to come forward through the Inspectors General, express themselves, and then have their complaints or expressions of dissatisfaction or fear or worry, have them bring those concerns forward. We'll take them. We'll present them to you in an organized and lawful manner as prescribed by statute. And that way we get the communication that we need in order to stay aware of what is happening in the entire Intelligence Community, in the classified environment, but not having to deal with unlawful disclosures or leaks. Senator Heinrich. Thank you. Mr. Chair, I'm running a little bit short on time. I think I'll leave my other questions for the record. Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you. Senator Cornyn? Senator Cornyn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I might start by saying, Director Coats, I've never seen you look so tan and rested as you are today. Somebody was asking the other day, have you heard from Dan Coats? And I'm glad to be able to report back we've had a sighting here today and you're doing just great. It's good to see you. Senator Coats. There is a life after. Senator Cornyn. You have a big smile on your face, and you're looking good. So, Ms. Abizaid, I want to continue our conversation from earlier today. Something I'm struggling with a little bit, a conversation I've had with Director Haines, as we talked about earlier. You know, our history includes periods of time in which the U.S. Government has surveilled activity, lawful activity by American citizens. I'm thinking of the civil rights era, the anti-war movement during the Vietnam War, and the like. And I am just a little bit concerned in light of some of the abuses that Inspector Horowitz revealed even in the office of the FBI in making misrepresentations to the FISA court about American citizens in order to get a FISA warrant that--I think this is an area fraught with a lot of danger. And I know we talked about domestic violent extremism, for example. And you know, we're all very familiar with the elaborate and comprehensive and very effective set of tools the Intelligence Community has in dealing with a foreign threat. But here in the United States, when you're talking about American citizens, you alluded to the right American citizens have to speak freely and to assemble freely, petition their government for the redress of grievances, in the words of the Constitution. I worry a little bit that because of a lack of clarity and because of ambiguity into exactly where the authorities of the Intelligence Community stops or starts. Traditionally, I would think that if you're talking about American citizens committing crimes or even concerns about intelligence, you'd be talking about the FBI. And I know the Department of Homeland Security has a role to play, too. But I'd just like for you to talk to us a little bit about whether you share those concerns and if you think there are any bright lines that we ought to observe and that the Intelligence Community of which you will be a part again should observe. Ms. Abizaid. Thank you, Senator Cornyn, for the question and for the conversation that we had earlier today. Any use of intelligence authorities needs to be consistent with the Constitution and follow the laws of the land. That is a very bright line. And it's one that has to govern all of our activities across the Intelligence Community. I think domestic violent extremism is a concern. It's concerning in the rise that we've seen over the last several years. It's been a concern for decades, frankly. And I think that the FBI and now DHS have actually played a very effective role and resourced appropriately, given the significance of that threat. And they need to be in the lead. They are domestic agencies, and they are the ones that that need to take the lead in operating against that threat. When I look at NCTC and the statute that enshrined it and gave it capabilities, you know, it exists to connect the dots, right? Foreign, domestic sources of intelligence around terrorist threats are important for the National Counterterrorism Center to have access to, to understand whether there is any foreign nexus, and that is the primary mission of the National Counterterrorism Center. Where FBI and DHS seek the support of NCTC, I would hope, if confirmed as director, that I would be able to provide that, appropriate with--appropriately so with keeping in mind always the Constitution and the laws of the land. Senator Cornyn. Well, thank you for that answer. It's what I would have expected to hear from you. But I do think that, as I discussed with Director Haines, there needs to be as much clarity as we can possibly provide because of the practical consequences of a lack of trust by the American people in what the Intelligence Community is actually doing. And we have seen that here, as you and I talked about here in Congress, when it comes to trying to reauthorize some of the most critical tools that the Intelligence Community had, we weren't able to even reauthorize Section 215, which is one of the most basic kind of law enforcement tools not made that available now to the IC because we just simply couldn't get it done, because of a lack of trust in how they would be used. So I think I've always thought of this as different layers to try to earn the trust of the American people and Congress, and so they would trust us to use these tools appropriately, like you said, and consistent with the Constitution, consistent with the rights of American citizens under the Bill of Rights. So I look forward to working with you and also Director Haines and others, Director Wray, and anybody else who wants to contribute to that conversation, because I think we're entering into a period where I think unless we are as clear as we can humanly be about where those lines are, where authorities stop and start, and how these tools are used, we are going to jeopardize our ability to use the tools we actually need in the Intelligence Community to keep our Nation safe. Thank you. Chairman Warner. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Cornyn. Senator Bennet? Senator Bennet. Thank you. I'd like to ask Senator Cornyn's question a little bit of a different way, Ms. Abizaid, because I think it's an important point. And how do you--maybe this is the wrong metaphor, but how do you think of the role of NCTC as a bridge between the terrorist threats that are abroad and the threats that are related to domestic terrorism here in the United States? Obviously, that concern has evolved over time since the Agency was started. And actually, I'll bet you they've evolved since you left government to be in the private sector and are coming back. So I wonder if you could help us think about it in that context. Ms. Abizaid. I appreciate the question, Senator. And I think you're right. The threat itself has evolved since I was last deeply engaged in it, particularly related to the domestic violent extremist threat. And I think this question of balance and this question of ensuring that the American people trust our use of our authorities across the IC but also across all of our agencies is a really important one. NCTC was established to connect the dots. Integrating intelligence from across an array of sources, whether they're foreign or domestic sources of intelligence, is the mission of the Center. How it does that, the way in which it collaborates with other operating agencies, the way that it provides information to FBI, to DHS, but also State and local authorities, tribal authorities, that's a key kind of dissemination requirement that is enshrined in the statute that created NCTC and I think is an important one for us to follow through at the center. You know, this idea of integrating intelligence from all sources, providing the best analytic expertise about not just an incident, but the threat and the trajectory of the threat I think is what the National Counterterrorism Center does best. And if we can do that, supporting FBI and DHS as they take the lead against domestic violence extremism, I would look forward to being able to provide that support if confirmed. Senator Bennet. Can you tell us how you think about the ways in which social media--the role it's playing and the ways it's challenging our counterterrorism mission? Ms. Abizaid. I think there are a myriad of challenges associated with social media platforms, whether it's the ways in which terrorist groups and extremists exploit those platforms to inspire others to act, to spread their--not just ideologies that are violent in nature, but also the tactics, techniques, and procedures that they use and would encourage others to use. I also think the encryption of some of those platforms presents challenges as well, and as terrorist groups, individuals that are moved to violence have access to more ubiquitous technology, we in the Intelligence Community need to work very hard to keep pace and stay ahead of the threat, regardless of whether it is virtual or otherwise. Senator Bennet. And how do you think about that? I mean, now you're coming back. You've been at Dell for four years. You probably learned some things there that are useful to you coming back, I hope, in public service, as you gain your new position. How are you going to approach the question: Where are we on that learning curve? And have we adopted sort of best in class technologies for what we're trying to do? And by that I don't literally mean technology, although I guess I do somewhat, but also the organizational structure is probably just as important. Ms. Abizaid. I think, Senator, asking those questions right upfront is going to be essential, right? Getting a lay of the land, understanding what technologies we employ, understanding what kind of TTPs terrorist organizations are operating with-- in what online environments and what technologies I think is an important question to ask. How we approach that and how we approach that in a whole- of-government way I think is going to be a key question going forward. I don't know exactly the answer today, but it is something that I would certainly seek to understand very soon after being confirmed. Senator Bennet. I don't think this Committee understands the answer, either. But we're grappling with it. And I think we look forward to having further conversations with you about it. And Ms. Ashton, I'm out of time, but I would say that I enjoyed our conversation yesterday and I want to thank you for your courage. And it'll be a real privilege to vote to confirm both of you. Senator Coats, thank you for your extraordinary leadership, as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Warner. Senator Casey? Senator Casey. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. And I want to thank and commend both nominees for your enduring commitment to public service, for taking on the responsibilities you seek to take on, and grateful for the excellence that you bring to your work, and so grateful to see Director Coats here. We're happy to have you back in the Senate, no matter what hat you're wearing. And thank you for that. Ms. Abizaid, I'll start with you regarding Afghanistan. I know that, as you said, I think, in your testimony today that there would be a diminishment in our efforts to collect intelligence and do counterterrorism. But I know you'd agree with us that we have to continue that work. What are your thoughts? Or do you have any plans or ideas about how to mitigate the adverse impact of withdrawal--to be able to continue a really robust counterterrorism within Afghanistan and within the region? And what if any partnerships do we have to strengthen or resuscitate to do that? One, for example, would be Pakistan. How much can we place reliance upon that relationship, as well as others? But what are your thoughts on that? How to mitigate some of the challenges that will arise? Ms. Abizaid. Thank you for the question. You know, I don't have all the prescriptions, right? I haven't spent any time in the Intelligence Community in the last couple of years. But I know this is going to be job one for the Intelligence Community. You know, NCTC itself doesn't have clandestine collection authorities. But it is going to be very concerned about the degree and the fidelity of intelligence from the region about the terrorist threat. And so how we work with our partners at the CIA, at NSA, at various other organizations to ensure that we do maintain a robust focus--and hopefully a priority focus in the region--on understanding the trajectory of the counterterrorism environment, I think that that's got to be key. How we best do that, again, I think would be better left to classified sessions, if, in fact, I'm confirmed and able to dig into it. But I think it's going to be essential. Foreign partners are also going to be critical in that. And that's not just regional foreign partners. And Pakistan is an important relationship. They have been an important counterterrorism partner, even if they've been frustrating in some respects, as well. But all the countries in the region matter, and so do those other countries that have interests in the region, and especially our NATO allies that have such time on the ground shared with us and our U.S. forces, having a collaboration across those foreign partnerships, those foreign alliances, to make sure we all kind of share resources and do our best to understand what's happening in that region, I think will be absolutely essential. Senator Casey. Well, thanks. I look forward to working with you on it. And, Ms. Ashton, I was going to ask a question about your previous experience, but that's already been alluded to, and we appreciate your determined public service under difficult circumstances. I guess I wanted to look to the future in terms of your role as the IG. This is kind of a particular question about what some would argue would be an obligation. I guess I'll just ask it this way. Do you believe the CIA is obligated upon request to provide direction to a whistleblower on how to contact either of the Congressional intelligence committees? Ms. Ashton. Thank you for that question, Senator. Yes, I do believe that. I think the statute is very clear. We have to have a way for people to come forward in a lawful way and share classified information with this Committee. That's absolutely clear. And if I were confirmed as the Inspector General, I will start day one to ensure that the CIA's whistleblower program is strong and robust, that people have a way to come forward, that they understand how to come forward, and very importantly, that when they do come forward, there are true professionals on the other side of the phone or the computer or the letter to answer questions and to guide the person as they're moving forward in the process. Because it isn't an easy process always. And we have to not only present--. You know, it's not just a statute. We have to provide steps and guidance and instruction so that people can effectively bring their concerns to the Inspector General's office and that eventually those concerns are delivered, disseminated to this Committee when appropriate. Senator Casey. Thanks very much. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Warner. Senator King, you've got another question? Senator King. Senator Gillibrand. Chairman Warner. Oh, Senator Gillibrand on WebEx. Senator Gillibrand. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How are you? I first want to talk to Ms. Abizaid. You are a bit of a first, so I want to congratulate you. You are a career national security professional, and if confirmed, would be the first woman to lead the NCTC. What does that mean for you? And how do you believe the Intelligence Community could better recruit and retrain and promote women like yourself? Ms. Abizaid. Thank you very much, Senator. I appreciate the question. I actually am really fortunate to have come up in the Intelligence Community with a number of women who I respect a great deal and who I think would be excellent at this job or any other Senate-confirmed position. I think there are a number of women that are ready and eager to serve their country and serve it with honor and distinction across the board. And I think that my performance as director, Director Haines' performance as the DNI, all of that should just be taken as an example that it is very achievable for other women to do the same. Senator Gillibrand. So we've heard testimony over the last several months about how we can recruit and retain the best Intelligence Community members. And one of the ideas we've been talking a bit about is having a cyber academy, particularly for service members and civilians to come into the area of intelligence through something like a service academy, but one that is for a civilian workforce, so they could go into intelligence, they could go into commerce or Treasury or Department of Energy, but particularly in the cyber space, because we are obviously competing with the great industries of the world, of the Googles and the Facebooks, but we want to introduce this idea of public service earlier in people's careers. Because today I've heard a lot of our recruits come laterally from the DOD. And as you know, DOD is largely male, largely white, largely people who are interested in learning how to shoot a gun and are very physically fit. And not all of those characteristics are necessary for the greatest cyber minds in the world. So tell me how you would see something like a cyber academy where we could create a pipeline for workforce, particularly in the intelligence careers, through a civilian-type academy, where if they go to school and receive their education, they give back four years? Ms. Abizaid. Senator, this is the first I've heard of the idea, but I really like it. I think the opportunity to serve is one that that many people would like to have. Some would choose not to do it merely based on financial or even just a sense that the path doesn't exist for them. And I think anything that we can do to create those paths and to open it up to a broader array of expertise that exists across a very talented landscape in our country, I think it would be great. You know, I've spent the last four years in the private sector and have been really impressed with the kind of expertise and commitment to the country to serving the Nation that I see in my colleagues. And so it sounds like a very interesting idea. Senator Gillibrand. Thank you. One of my concerns is that-- what should we say--the landscape on which we are playing today tends to be the United States infrastructure. And I'm very concerned that from the counterterrorism perspective that our terrorist opponents are using our own infrastructure as their targets, through cyber-attack. Whether we're talking about pipelines or we're talking about meat processing facilities or we're talking about computer networks and Microsoft apps, we seem to have vulnerabilities. And in fact, we've had hearings in this Committee where our witnesses have talked about blind spots and how the cyber defense that we need isn't where it needs to be. Can you talk a little bit about what your vision is to deal with cyberterrorism and counterterrorism when it is actually focused on terrorism here in the United States against U.S. assets and U.S. companies? Ms. Abizaid. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think that anything that we can do to enhance the cybersecurity, especially of critical infrastructure, but across the board is absolutely essential. And it's to protect against those that would have capability, and I think that capability is becoming more ubiquitous, and seek to do the country harm. To the extent that those that have that capability and want to use that are terrorist groups, that would be of significant interest to the National Counterterrorism Center. Any tactics, techniques, or procedures that terrorists use are something that we need to develop a capability to understand and mitigate. And we would need in this case to do that in close cooperation with the cyber executive who resides at the ODNI, but also our cyber expertise that resides across government. And this idea of working across silos, that is what NCTC does really well. It's something that I think we could really enhance the cybersecurity and cyber experts across our government. Our processes could actually inform theirs in ways that I think could be very effective. So to the extent that this is a significant threat posed by terrorist groups, it would be something that would be of paramount focus. Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator King. Thank you, Senator. Senator Warner had a commitment, and so the Constitution is in danger because I'm in charge. [Laughter.] Ms. Abizaid, I think we're making this question about domestic violent extremism more complicated than it needs to be. The key word is violent. Terrorism, and I just looked it up, is the unlawful use of violence or intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. If there was an ISIS cell in Pensacola and information came to you that they were plotting to kidnap and assassinate the Governor of Florida, would that not be squarely in your lane of information-sharing between your agency and the FBI, for example? Ms. Abizaid. It absolutely would. Senator King. So if that organization in Pensacola was Aryan Americans for the White Race plotting to kidnap the Governor of Florida and assassinate him, would that not be squarely within your jurisdiction that you would then work with the FBI to try to thwart that violent threat against the Governor? Ms. Abizaid. If we had that information, we absolutely would work with the FBI. And FBI, I would imagine, would take the lead on thwarting that, absolutely. Senator King. I think there's been a lot of talk about bright lines. The bright line is violence. Nobody's talking about snooping on Americans for their political beliefs or how they feel about various provisions of the Constitution. Your jurisdiction is terrorism. And if it involves threats of violence, your job is to thwart violence against civilians and political figures, if you will, in our country, is it not? Ms. Abizaid. It is. That's right. Senator King. So, I would urge you that--this question keeps coming up. And there's unease about it. And I understand we don't want to be in the business of spying on Americans. But we also have to protect ourselves, just as we protect ourselves against criminal enterprises that are conspiring to rob banks or blow up a bridge or whatever the purpose is. So I appreciate your appearance here today, but to me the key phrase is ``domestic violent extremists.'' It's not ``domestic extremists.'' The key question is violence. And if you focus on that, I think that keeps you out of the weeds of this Constitutional unease that we've heard expressed here today. Are there any other questions on WebEx? Other than that, I appreciate our witnesses being here today. Senator Coats, pleasure to have you. Thank you both for your dedication to this country and your willingness to undertake a new task in public service. With that, I believe the Chairman said that the record is open until Friday afternoon at the close of business for questions for the record. Thank you all very much. The hearing is adjourned. [Whereupon at 4:05 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.] Supplemental Material [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]

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