Open Hearing: Nomination of Ambassador William Burns to be Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)

[Senate Hearing 117-80] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 117-80 OPEN HEARING: NOMINATION OF WILLIAM J. BURNS TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2021 __________ Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Intelligence [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov ________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 45-486 WASHINGTON : 2021 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE [Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.] MARK R. WARNER, Virginia, Chairman MARCO RUBIO, Florida, Vice Chairman DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California RICHARD BURR, North Carolina RON WYDEN, Oregon JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico SUSAN COLLINS, Maine ANGUS KING, Maine ROY BLUNT, Missouri MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado TOM COTTON, Arkansas BOB CASEY, Pennsylvania JOHN CORNYN, Texas KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York BEN SASSE, Nebraska CHUCK SCHUMER, New York, Ex Officio MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky, Ex Officio JACK REED, Rhode Island, Ex Officio JAMES INHOFE, Oklahoma, Ex Officio ---------- Michael Casey, Staff Director Chris Joyner, Minority Staff Director Kelsey Stroud Bailey, Chief Clerk C O N T E N T S ---------- FEBRUARY 24, 2021 OPENING STATEMENTS Page Warner, Hon. Mark R., a U.S. Senator from Virginia............... 1 Rubio, Hon. Marco, a U.S. Senator from Florida................... 3 WITNESSES * Baker, William, Former Secretary of State........................ 5 Panetta, Leon, Former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency; Former Secretary of Defense............................ 7 Burns, William J., Nominee to be Director of the Central Intelligence Agency............................................ 9 Prepared statement........................................... 13 SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL Questionnaire for Completion by Presidential Nominees............ 44 Additional Pre-Hearing Questions................................. 62 Post-Hearing Questions for the Record............................ 89 * Mr. Baker and Mr. Panetta appeared via WebEx. OPEN HEARING: NOMINATION OF WILLIAM J. BURNS TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY ---------- WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2021 U.S. Senate, Select Committee on Intelligence, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in Room SR-301, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Mark R. Warner (Chairman of the Committee) presiding........................ Present: Senators Warner, Rubio, Feinstein, Wyden, Heinrich, King (via WebEx), Bennet, Casey, Gillibrand (via WebEx), Reed (Ex Officio), Burr, Risch, Collins, Blunt, Cotton, Cornyn, and Sasse.................................................... OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARK R. WARNER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM VIRGINIA Chairman Warner. Good morning, everyone. I would like to call this hearing to order and recognize that I think this is the first time in the history of the Intelligence Committee that we have met in the Rules Committee's space. I think we probably owe that to the distinguished former Chairman of the Rules Committee, Senator Blunt. We would hope--I know you are still the Ranking Member--but there's been a series of requests from Intel Committee staff that we would like a ship put in our SCIF as well...................................... Senator Blunt. Only the Rules Committee can have a ship. No ship is available............................................ Chairman Warner. Can you say NGA West?......................... Well, again I'd like to call this Committee to order, and again we appreciate the cooperation of our colleagues on the Rules Committee for letting us use this setting.................... Welcome, Ambassador Burns...................................... I know as we talked in the anteroom that your wife, Lisa, is still hard at work in Geneva, and your daughters are watching remotely, but I know they are here with you in spirit. I would like to say congratulations on your nomination to be the next Director of the CIA. After a long and distinguished career in the Foreign Service, you deserve a well-earned retirement, but the country still needs your talents......... Ambassador Burns--Bill--thank you for once again being willing to serve our country......................................... Welcome also to our two distinguished guests who are joining us remotely: former Secretary of State James Baker and former Defense Secretary and CIA Director Leon Panetta. It's going to be a privilege to hear from such eminent and bipartisan public servants who will introduce Ambassador Burns. Again I think is a great indication of his broad-based support....... I understand that some of our Members may be joining us remotely today as well, although I would like to acknowledge Senator Casey. He appeared yesterday remotely but is here today for his first in-person Intelligence Committee meeting. We are very glad, Bob, to have you on the Committee.......... After the Vice Chairman and I give our opening statement, Secretaries Baker and Panetta will say a few words, and Ambassador Burns will then make his remarks. After this, Members' questions will be for five minutes in order of arrival...................................................... Ambassador Burns has provided us with written responses to questions from the Committee, and today's hearing will provide Members the opportunity to thoughtfully consider his qualifications, to hear directly from the nominee, and for Ambassador Burns to share his views on how he would lead the women and men of the Central Intelligence Agency............. Bill took the Foreign Service exam in November 1979, just a few days after the seizure of our Embassy in Tehran and went on to spend over three decades in the Foreign Service working under both Democratic and Republican Presidents and ably representing America around the world and at the highest ranks of the State Department................................ He's been confirmed by the Senate five times--so going for six today--and has served in both the number two and three positions at the State Department: Deputy Secretary of State and Undersecretary for Political Affairs. He's been our Nation's Ambassador to Russia, to Jordan, and held a variety of other senior national security roles. He holds the highest rank in the State Department, that of Career Ambassador...... He is currently the president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the oldest international think tank in the United States. It is safe to say that Mr. Burns is intimately familiar with the challenges and opportunities that the United States faces around the globe, in many cases with firsthand, on-the-ground experience and expertise. It is the key qualities of expertise and sound judgment that, perhaps above all others, will be most important in your role as the Director of the CIA................................... After four years during which the expertise and judgment of America's civil servants were at times belittled and discounted, the next Director must lead and inspire patriotic professionals with humility and compassion, work collaboratively with allied governments, and dispassionately judge the actions of our adversaries......................... CIA has in some ways been luckier than many other agencies. Director Haspel, your predecessor, has led the CIA with distinction under very difficult conditions, but I will be looking to hear your views on how to inspire CIA's intelligence professionals who often risk much, sacrifice much, and sometimes up to and including their health and lives in service of our country--and oftentimes without recognition because of their requirement to do that in secret....................................................... I would like to hear how you plan to reinforce the credo no matter the political pressure, no matter what, that CIA officers will always do the right thing and speak truth to power. And it is up to America's leaders, including you if you are confirmed, to ensure that CIA's officers will not face retribution or retaliation for speaking truth to power.. Beyond this basic task, our country faces a host of hazards from China's drive to surpass the United States technologically, to Russia's continued malign efforts in cyberspace and disinformation, to the ongoing threats from Iran and North Korea. Moreover, we are still in the midst of a global pandemic--although with hope on the horizon--that has taken the lives and livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of Americans................................................. These challenges are difficult, but with our traditionally strong network of alliances, they are surmountable. We will always rely on the CIA to be the Nation's eyes and ears, to see over the horizon, and to give us warnings of threats and challenges; not simply the ones we are facing now and in the near term, but those in the future against which we must begin to prepare today....................................... Fulfilling this Committee's oversight obligations will require transparency and responsiveness from your office. We may at times ask difficult questions of you and your staff, and we will expect honest, complete, and timely answers............. At the same time, we will also want you to feel free to come to the Committee with situations that warrant our partnership. You can always count on this Committee to hear you out, give you a fair shake, usually without the partisan tinge that has unfortunately affected much of the rest of this Capitol...... We will have much more to discuss during today's questions, but I would take this moment to assure you that should you be confirmed, I look forward to working closely with you to defend this Nation's security................................ Thank you again for your years of service to our country and for stepping forward yet again and agreeing to serve. I look forward to your testimony, and with that, I recognized the distinguished Vice Chairman.................................. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARCO RUBIO, A U.S. SENATOR FROM FLORIDA Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Ambassador thank you for being with us today. I join the Chairman in offering you and your family our congratulations, and/or condolences as you may deem appropriate, for your nomination at this important time in our Nation's history with these challenges that we face...................................... The role that you have been nominated to fill is without parallel in our government. If confirmed you will sit at the nexus of the Agency's intelligence collection, analysis, covert action, counterintelligence, and liaison relationships with foreign intelligence services. Responsibility for any of these missions would be an enormous undertaking for any single one of them, let alone all of them. But the core mission of the Agency is and remains the collection of intelligence; the analysis of that intelligence to help inform policymakers in the decisions they make; and then, of course, operations as well................................... And in that context, as Director, you will be responsible for managing the CIA officers and employees of today, but also for cultivating the workforce that we are going to need in the years to come. So this, in my view, entails the specialized skills and expertise needed to solve today's unique intelligence challenges--our residents at the Agency-- but also it involves looking ahead a decade and thinking about what the next critical skill set is going to be that the officers will need. So I appreciate your insights as to how you intend to achieve and accomplish that in your time there........................................................ On the subject of workforce management, I want to mention that the Committee, in particular Senator Collins and others, are extremely interested and invested in ensuring that any officers who have been injured in the field are afforded access to the healthcare and the benefits that they need. And this is particularly true when it comes to injuries that seem to be consistent with symptoms of traumatic brain injury..... So, if you are confirmed, I ask for your commitment to work with the Committee so that we can find the appropriate legislative or policy changes that ensure that the CIA's commitment to the health and care of its officers is never left in doubt; and that we are applying the necessary resources to determine who was behind these things that have impacted personnel from various agencies. And I want to be clear: the Government of the United States needs to solve this problem, needs to take care of our people; but needs to also forcibly respond to whoever is responsible for hurting Americans who are serving our country overseas............... Today the United States faces an array of diverse national security threats, an array of threats that is as challenging as any in our history. The long-standing hostility from Putin's regime in Russia and from Iran, North Korea; a global pandemic moving into its second year; violent extremism; state and non-state cyber actors that infiltrate and plunder government and private sector computer networks with what seems like impunity--and with new and creative methods....... But no challenge that we face rivals the multifaceted threat posed by the Chinese Communist Party. And so, even as we continue to focus on the threats from counterterrorism and from all these other nation-states and non-state actors, the threat from the Chinese Communist Party is the most significant facing our Nation, perhaps in its history. We cannot, in my view, just be the orderly caretakers of our Nation's decline............................................. We must confront and, I hope, frustrate the ambitions of the Chinese Communist Party, not just to upend norms, amend boundaries, but to replace the United States. Their goal is to replace the United States as the world's most powerful and influential Nation. And achieving the goal of not letting that happen is going to involve strengthening and expanding alliances. I think it's also going to involve increased capability and a stronger resolve to meet this challenge. This is not the same system of crisis that past CIA leaders were called upon to defend against. The threats today are sudden, unpredictable, and they're happening with greater frequency, often occurring in a gray space that embraces the objectives of conflict without quite crossing the line into outright warfare............................................. What I think is plain to me and should be to all is that the world has changed how it chooses to engage the United States. What I'd like to hear from you today and, if confirmed, in the weeks and months to come, is whether the CIA needs to change how it engages the world.............................. I hope that over the course of our open and closed sessions today you'll take the opportunity to explain not only your understanding of the Agency's unique role in America and in our government, but your vision for how that role needs to evolve in the coming years so that the Agency is positioned to defend against those emerging national security threats that have not yet even materialized.......................... There is no disputing the speed and unrivaled capability that the Agency can bring to bear in responding to a fully realized national security threat. But what I'm driving at, however, is an intelligence apparatus oriented toward the technological advances and the global interconnectivity that will be at the core of the next generation of threats to this Nation's security: artificial intelligence, advanced data analytics, biotechnology, disinformation, deep fakes, social network manipulation. America's adversaries have used this and all these things and will use these instruments. And they'll use other new instruments of power and technologies, some that haven't even been named yet, to close the capability gap that has advantaged us as a Nation for decades...................................................... The refashioning of the national security threat picture by these technological and methodological advances calls into question whether the traditional constructs of espionage need to be refined, refashioned, and redesigned along with it..... So, I'd welcome your thoughts on this subject, both today and going forward, and add that this is exactly the kind of undertaking that has benefited by CIA's working partnership with this Committee and with its Members..................... So, it's my hope--and, frankly, my expectation--that you will look at this Committee as a partner to the CIA's work as our Nation's first line of defense. The relationship between the Agency and this Committee is premised, obviously, on oversight, but it is most effective and most constructive when we are candid, fulsome, and talking to one another...... Ambassador, as the Chairman indicated, you have a lengthy and distinguished career of service to our country, and I thank you for your willingness to resume that service. And I certainly look forward to your testimony and your answers here today................................................... Thank you, Mr. Chairman........................................ Chairman Warner. Thank you, Senator Rubio...................... Bill, I understand you have two of America's most distinguished public servants, former Secretary of State James Baker and former Defense and CIA Director Leon Panetta, who will present brief introductions for you. They'll be speaking remotely on your behalf today................................ So, Secretary Baker, would you like to go first?............... STATEMENT BY JAMES BAKER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE Secretary Baker. Thank you Chairman Warner, thank you Vice Chairman Rubio and Members of the Committee, for inviting me to speak today on the nomination of William J. Burns to be Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. I am truly honored that Bill asked me to speak on his behalf today, and I am delighted to be joined by my old friend, Leon Panetta... Without any reservations, Members of the Committee, I can strongly recommend Bill Burns to you......................... Bill, President Biden is to be congratulated for choosing you, and my reasoning in this regard is really straightforward. Bill is quite simply one of the finest and most intelligent American diplomats that I had the pleasure of working with. His unique combination of experience, skill, and character make him an outstanding choice for directorship of the CIA... As a Secretary of State, I relied on Bill's judgment during one of the most tumultuous eras in U.S. foreign policy. He was instrumental in forging effective American policies as we worked to end the cold war peacefully, ensure the reunification of a Germany firmly embedded in the West, reverse Iraqi aggression against Kuwait, and bring together Israel and all of its neighboring Arab states for their first-ever face-to-face meeting at the 1991 Madrid Peace Conference................................................... Each of these complex situations was challenging, and Bill's contributions made an enormous difference. Bill was there every step of the way, even at times displaying his first- rate sense of humor by laughing at my weak jokes. Bill combined the remarkable ability to grasp broad historical trends while at the same time identifying pragmatic opportunities for the United States to advance our interests. After I left office, I watched Bill rise to ever more senior ranks in the State Department: Executive Secretary, Ambassador to Jordan, Assistant Secretary for Near Eastern Affairs, Ambassador to Russia, Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, and then finally Deputy Secretary of State. I wasn't surprised by his success. He is someone who seizes and surmounts every challenge that he meets........... Members of the Committee, you can be assured when it comes to the security of the United States, our country will be in capable hands. I cannot help but think about another Director of Central Intelligence, President George H. W. Bush, my close friend who served as head of the Agency in the 1970s. President Bush and Bill Burns admittedly represent contrasts in terms of age, background, and career, but they do share one important, indeed, essential characteristic: an absolute and abiding sense of responsibility and duty to the United States of America. Bill Burns is a leader and a steady hand under fire. He never hesitates to speak truth even when he knows it may be unwelcome.................................... He is scrupulously nonpartisan, and he has decades of experience working closely with the CIA and other intelligence agencies. He knows Washington. He knows the work. President Biden and our country would be very fortunate to have Bill Burns at the helm of the Central Intelligence Agency....................................................... Distinguished Members of the Committee, let me close these brief remarks by simply saying that, in my opinion, this confirmation should be a bipartisan no-brainer............... Thank you very much for letting me speak to you today on behalf of Bill Burns. Thank you..................................... Chairman Warner. Well, thank you, Secretary Baker, very much appreciate those comments.................................... Secretary Panetta?............................................. STATEMENT BY LEON PANETTA, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, AND FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE Secretary Panetta. Mr. Chairman, Senator Warner, Vice Chairman Rubio, distinguished Members of the Committee, it's an honor for me to once again have the opportunity to appear before this Committee that is so critical to protecting our national security..................................................... I'm honored to be here alongside my friend, Secretary Jim Baker. He's an old friend and a colleague for many years in government, and someone who I believe is probably one of the great statesmen and public servants of our time. I'm proud to join him in introducing the President's nominee to be CIA Director, Ambassador Bill Burns.............................. I've known Bill for a long time. I've been in public life for probably over 50 years, and I've worked with him in many of those capacities that I've held in Congress, during my tenure as Chief of Staff to President Bill Clinton, and as Director of the CIA and Secretary of Defense in President Obama's administration............................................... The job of leading the extraordinary women and men of the CIA as they carry out their indispensable missions of collection, analysis, covert action--all intended to defend our Nation-- that job, I believe, is one of the most important responsibilities in government. And the most important qualities that I believe a Director should have is to respect and support the professionals in the CIA who put their lives on the line in order to protect this country and do their jobs......................................................... I think it is important for the Director to protect them from political influence, to be nonpartisan, and to always, always make sure that the CIA speaks truth to power. Bill Burns has those qualities. He understands the dedication of our brave intelligence officers. He has got the right experience, he has got the right nonpartisan approach, and he knows the importance of protecting our country from our adversaries.... In a word, he will make an outstanding Director of the CIA..... I don't need to tell this Committee that our Nation faces an increasingly complex set of challenges and threats. I think in my lifetime I have never seen as many flashpoints in the world as we have today, whether it's Russia or China or Iran or North Korea; whether it's cyberattacks; whether it's challenges that we face in the Middle East, in Afghanistan. All of these challenges demand good intelligence............. No President--no President--can make the right decisions for our Nation in protecting our national security without intelligence. This is what the CIA does by collecting and analyzing and presenting intelligence to policymakers so that they can make the best security decisions for the country and provide intelligence that can be trusted and is credible..... The challenge of President Biden and a new Director is to restore the trust and credibility of the CIA. Having worked with President Biden, I believe that he understands that intelligence must be grounded in facts and never be politicized.................................................. He knows our selfless and brave intelligence professionals, and they deserve nothing less than our full support. It is for these reasons that he chose Bill Burns to be the CIA Director, and I am confident that both will work to restore trust of the CIA with the National Security Team, with both Democrats and Republicans on this Committee, with our allies, and most of all, with the American people.................... As Jim Baker pointed out, Bill has represented our country for decades as a dedicated, honest diplomat serving both Democratic and Republican administrations. I won't walk through his career, Jim just did that. It's been an outstanding foreign policy career. I have to say it is almost exactly 10 months ago this month, or 10 years ago this month, that Bill and I were in the Situation Room presenting intelligence to the President on the suspected whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.............................................. Bill saw the CIA in action gathering detailed information, providing insights, explaining what we knew and also what we didn't know. And Bill was at the White House on May 1, 2011, when the courageous mission of our special operations forces unfolded. He was hand-picked by the Secretary of State to personally participate in closely held national security discussions about the mission, and to place calls to our key allies and foreign leaders informing them of the mission..... He is a public servant who has spent his life serving and protecting Americans. As CIA Director, he will certainly speak truth to power because that is what Bill does, and he has done that his entire career.............................. He has long known that calling it down the middle is essential even when it may not be convenient. He will also make sure he and other Agency leaders are responsive to oversight by this Committee and by the Congress. As all of you know, I'm a big believer that the CIA and this Committee have to be partners in order to fulfill the mission of protecting the American people. And he knows the array of challenges that the Agency faces dealing with major competitors, as I said, from China to so many other of those flashpoints I described, and the technological landscape in which our officers now have to operate...................................................... In sum, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Vice Chairman and Members of the Committee, Bill Burns is the right person at the right time to lead the CIA. His experience in foreign policy and national security, his judgment, his unquestioned integrity will be assets as he leads the CIA in facing the threats that we face...................................................... And he understands the sacrifices that are made by our intelligence professionals, often working in the shadows in dangerous places away from their families. He knows that CIA, these officers, are silent warriors--officers who put their lives on the line for our country. I trust Bill Burns to be a Director who will have their backs so that they can continue the mission to protect all Americans......................... As a former Director, I am honored to introduce to the Committee Bill Burns and urge his swift confirmation. Thank you.......................................................... Chairman Warner. Well, thank you Secretary Panetta. And let me just say it's--on a personal basis--not too bad to have Jim Baker and Leon Panetta be your introducers................... So now we will move to the Oath of Office...................... Ambassador Burns, would you stand and please raise your right hand?........................................................ [Nominee stands and raises his right hand.].................... Do you solemnly swear to give this Committee the truth, the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?...... Ambassador Burns. I do......................................... Chairman Warner. Please be seated.............................. Before we move to your statement, I would ask you the five standard questions the Committee poses to each nominee who appears before us. They just require a simple yes or no answer for the record........................................ First, do you agree to appear before the Committee here or in other venues when invited?................................... Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir..................................... Chairman Warner. If confirmed, do you agree to send officials from your office to appear before the Committee and designated staff when invited?............................... Ambassador Burns. Yes.......................................... Chairman Warner. Do you agree to provide documents or other materials requested by the Committee in order for it to carry out its oversight and legislative responsibilities?.......... Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir..................................... Chairman Warner. Will you ensure that your office and your staff provide such materials to the Committee when requested? Ambassador Burns. Yes.......................................... Chairman Warner. Do you agree to inform and fully brief to the fullest extent possible all Members of this Committee of intelligence activities and covert actions rather than only the Chairman and Vice Chairman?.............................. Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir..................................... Chairman Warner. Thank you very much........................... We will now proceed to your opening statement. After that, I will recognize Members by order of appearance, but assuming that everybody was here, I think, with the exception of Senator Cotton at the gavel. So it will be basically by seniority.................................................... Ambassador Burns, the floor is now yours....................... STATEMENT OF AMBASSADOR WILLIAM J. BURNS, NOMINEE TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY Ambassador Burns. Thank you so much............................ Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vice Chairman, Members of the Committee: I am honored and humbled to appear before you today as President Biden's nominee for Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. I am deeply grateful to the President for the opportunity to return to public service and to lead the remarkable women and men of CIA.............................. If confirmed, I will do everything in my power to justify the trust placed in me and to earn the trust of this Committee, Congress, and the American people. I am also deeply grateful to Secretary Baker and Director Panetta, two of the finest public servants this country has ever produced, for their very generous introductions.................................. My whole life has been shaped by public service. My father, a career Army officer, fought in Vietnam in the 1960s and eventually became the Director of the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency........................................... As my three brothers and I bounced from post to post across our remarkable country we never had to look further than my father for the best possible model of nonpartisan public service. And I never had to look further than my mother to find the best imaginable example of selflessness and commitment and a life shaped by faith, family, and hard work. I shared 33 years in the Foreign Service with my wife, Lisa-- herself, an exceptional public servant--and our two wonderful daughters, Lizzie and Sarah. Their love and support have made everything possible and have enriched my life beyond measure. Across those decades as a diplomat in the Middle East and Russia, and as a senior official in Administrations of both parties, I developed enormous respect for my CIA colleagues. I served alongside them in hard places around the world. It was their skill at collection and analysis that often gave me an edge as a negotiator: their partnership that helped make me an effective Ambassador and their insights that helped me make thoughtful choices on the most difficult policy issues.. I learned that good intelligence delivered with honesty and integrity is America's first line of defense. I learned that intelligence professionals have to tell policymakers what they need to hear, even if they don't want to hear it. And I learned that politics must stop where intelligence work begins. That is exactly what President Biden expects of CIA. It was the first thing he told me when he asked me to take on this role. He said he wants the Agency to give it to him straight, and I pledged to do just that and to defend those who do the same.............................................. As the President has emphasized, all of America's national security institutions will have to reimagine their roles on an international landscape that is profoundly different from the world I encountered as a young diplomat nearly 40 years ago, or even the world as it was when I left government six years ago.................................................... Today's landscape is increasingly complicated and competitive. It's a world where familiar threats persist from terrorism and nuclear proliferation to an aggressive Russia, a provocative North Korea, and a hostile Iran.................. But it's also a world of new challenges in which climate change and global health and security are taking a heavy toll on the American people; in which cyber threats pose an ever greater risk to our society; and in which an adversarial, predatory Chinese leadership poses our biggest geopolitical test. If confirmed, four crucial and interrelated priorities will shape my approach to leading CIA: China, technology, people, and partnerships............................................. As President Biden has underscored, out-competing China will be key to our national security in the decades ahead. That will require a long-term, clear-eyed bipartisan strategy underpinned by domestic renewal and solid intelligence. There will be areas in which it will be in our mutual self-interest to work with China, from climate change to nonproliferation. And I am very mindful that Xi Jinping's China is not without problems and frailties of its own. There are, however, a growing number of areas in which Xi's China is a formidable authoritarian adversary, methodically strengthening its capabilities to steal intellectual property, repress its own people, bully its neighbors, expand its global reach, and build influence in American society.......................... For CIA, that will mean intensified focus and urgency, continually strengthening its already impressive cadre of China specialists, expanding its language skills, aligning personnel and resource allocation for the long haul, and employing a whole-of-agency approach to the operational and analytical challenges of this crucial threat................. Another priority intimately connected to competition with China is technology. As all of you know as well as I do, the revolution in technology and rapid advances in fields like artificial intelligence are transforming the ways we live, work, fight, and compete..................................... CIA has a rich tradition of innovation and nothing will matter more to our ability to remain the best intelligence service in the world. CIA will need to relentlessly sharpen its capabilities to understand how rivals use cyber and other technological tools; anticipate, detect, and deter their use; and keep an edge in developing them ourselves. If confirmed, I'll have no higher priority than reinforcing CIA's greatest asset, its people............................................ The work of CIA's men and women is often invisible to most Americans. But I have served side-by-side with them, seeing firsthand their courage, their professionalism, and their sacrifices. I was privileged to be in the White House Situation Room when CIA's brilliant work helped bring Osama bin Laden to justice. But I also remember sadder and harder days, the sorrow and pain after the tragic attack at Khost, and quiet personal moments spent in front of the Agency's memorial wall whose stars include friends with whom I served. Honoring the sacrifice those stars represent means strengthening a workforce worthy of the CIA's seal, one that reflects the richness of our society and enables us to carry out our global mission. That means working even harder to enhance diversity, equity, and inclusion from entry-level to senior ranks. It means working even harder to retain and develop the Agency's extraordinary talent.................... Equipping them with the language skills, technical tools, training, and tradecraft that they require. And it means ensuring the health and well-being of colleagues and their families through this awful pandemic and wherever and whenever they face harm or risk.............................. Finally, if confirmed, I'll prioritize partnerships within the Intelligence Community and across the world. I will work closely with the Director of National Intelligence, my longtime friend and colleague, Avril Haines, to make sure the Agency's efforts fit seamlessly with her vision for integrating the Intelligence Community. America's partnerships and alliances are what set our country apart from lonelier major powers like China and Russia............. For CIA, intelligence partnerships are an increasingly important means of amplifying our understanding and influence. Investing in those liaison relationships has never been more important. It's a task for which my whole career has prepared me.............................................. No partnership will be more important to me than the one I hope to build with all of you on this Committee. In my conversations with each of you over the last few weeks, I have been struck by your commitment to bipartisanship and sense of shared purpose. I deeply respect your crucial oversight role which allows the American people to have confidence that the Agency is working faithfully on their behalf and living up to our values........................... If confirmed, I promise to do all I can to earn your trust and to be a strong partner. I'll seek your advice as well as your consent and I'll be accessible and honest, qualities I've tried hard to demonstrate throughout a lifetime in public service. I am deeply honored to be here today and I look forward to your questions.................................... Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.............................. [The prepared statement of Ambassador Burns follows:].......... [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Warner. Thank you, Ambassador Burns. And for planning purposes, if any Members of the Committee wish to submit questions for the record after today's hearing, please do so by the close of business on Friday, February 26th............ We will be going through five-minute rounds.................... Can you speak with a little more specificity to how you can go about restoring some of the morale of the workforce of the CIA? You know ``morale'' is an ethereal term. Are there measurement techniques or things that we should look to see how the workforce is doing, feeling, operating, you know three months, six months, a year in?......................... Ambassador Burns. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think in many ways the most important single thing is to reinforce--to what I hope are my future colleagues in CIA, if I'm confirmed--that their work matters more than ever, as I tried to describe in my opening statement. That their expertise, their courage, their sacrifices are respected..................................... And that, as I promised President Biden, we will deliver unvarnished intelligence, the best possible intelligence we can gather, the most sophisticated all-source analysis, to deliver it to policymakers without any hint of politics or any policy agenda............................................ To speak truth to power just as you rightly emphasize in your own opening comments, that's what President Biden expects of me. That's what I will do to the very best of my ability and, as I said, I will defend all of my colleagues who do exactly the same thing. And I think that's what's crucially important.................................................... Chairman Warner. I think the Committee will want to check in on this on a fairly regular basis. I think we've heard a number of concerns. A number of folks--professionals--were leaving. We've got to stanch that flow and move forward............... On that issue and related at least--and this has really been a concern of Senator Collins, and of the whole Committee--we've seen evidence now not just of Agency personnel, but State Department personnel and others become victims of mysterious attacks. It was for a while called the Havana Syndrome. And a number of us have been quite concerned that we still don't know the source of those attacks. We still don't potentially have a full medical diagnosis................................ And even though we have put it into law on the last three intel authorization bills, the ability for the CIA Director to provide enhanced benefits to those individuals--the kind of first-rate quality healthcare and compensation they need and deserve--we're not sure that's really taking place. So, I want you to speak to that.................................... I want to also get a commitment from you that CIA personnel who may have suffered brain injury have the option of treatment in our Nation's premier TBI facilities, including Walter Reed and other facilities of the highest caliber. To date, unfortunately that has not been the case..................... Ambassador Burns. Well, Mr. Chairman, the first thing I'd say is I very much admire your leadership, the leadership of the Vice Chairman and Senator Collins, as well as other Members of the Committee on these issues. Not only do I admire and appreciate it, but I know it's deeply appreciated by the women and men of the CIA..................................... If I'm confirmed as Director of CIA, I will have no higher priority than taking care of people, of colleagues and their families. And I do commit to you that, if I'm confirmed, I will make it an extraordinarily high priority to get to the bottom of who's responsible for the attacks that you just described, and to ensure that colleagues and their families get the care that they deserve, including at the National Institutes of Health and at Walter Reed. And I look forward very much to working with all of you to ensure that that's the case..................................................... Chairman Warner. And the last question is this Committee, under the leadership of Senator Burr and Senator Rubio, in many ways I think carved out a role as the technology committee on the Hill, and we really were the group that first raised the concerns about China's technological advances. We were the Committee that called into question and then tried to formulate across government a 5G response.................... On this issue of technology advancement, as Senator Rubio pointed out, China doesn't have the goal of competing with us; they have the goal of beating us in technological advancement. You may want to comment on this briefly, but continuing CIA's role to monitor China's advancement in all these technology fields is not simply a CIA directive. But we really do think the Intelligence Community has a broader view on this issue than any other part of our government.......... Ambassador Burns. No, it's hugely important, Mr. Chairman. And as I tried to emphasize in my opening statement, that connection between dealing with an adversarial China and ensuring that we can continue to compete effectively in technology is right at the top of my list of priorities, if I'm confirmed................................................ And I do respect the role of this Committee. And I watched the open hearing yesterday on SolarWinds, and it seemed to me to be a classic illustration of the value of a serious committee in looking at these issues. And I look forward very much to working with all of you on that.............................. Chairman Warner. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. Mr. Vice Chairman?. Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman................... Ambassador, in your written questions, you acknowledge that China uses cultural and educational programs, things like the Confucius Institutes and others, to try to influence U.S. policy debates to spread pro-China propaganda. So, given this acknowledgment, I wanted to focus a little bit on your time as the president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace........................................................ Now, Carnegie is involved with the China-United States Exchange Foundation, an organization that you acknowledged in your written questions and answers that is part of China's United Front system, which is an effort to co-opt and neutralize sources of potential opposition in part of their efforts to encourage foreign countries to adopt positions and narratives supportive of Beijing's preferred policies................... And in this work at the Endowment, it's reported that in 2019 you invited 11 Congressional staffers on a trip to China. They met with a professor who works for the Communist Party Central Committee. They met with the president of another front group for the Chinese Communist Party--a group that was designated last October by the State Department as a group that seeks to directly influence and actually--the quote is: ``Sought to directly and malignly influence state and local leaders in the United States.''.............................. And this group that you partnered with, the China-United States Exchange Foundation, a congressionally-appointed commission, in August 2018 said that they showed a clear intent to influence policy toward China in the United States. So, given your stated concerns about Chinese soft-power influence efforts, why while you were at the helm, did Carnegie Endowment for International Peace establish a relationship with and accept funding from this group, this China-United States Exchange Foundation?.................................. Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator Rubio, for the question..................................................... The first thing I'd emphasize is the Carnegie Endowment is a proudly independent and transparent organization, and scrupulous about ensuring that whatever financial support it receives, whether it's from trustees or foundations, doesn't in any way shape the content or the conclusions of scholarly work at Carnegie. That's first............................... Second, on the China-U.S. Exchange Foundation, this is a relationship that I inherited when I became president of Carnegie--and that I ended not long after I became president, precisely for the concerns that you just described, because we were increasingly worried about the expansion of Chinese influence operations......................................... Shortly after I ended that relationship, we began a program at the Carnegie Endowment on countering foreign influence operations, which was aimed mostly at China and Russia, and was supported in part from a grant from the Global Engagement Center at the State Department in the last Administration.... On the second issue, Senator Rubio, that you raised on the congressional staff delegation: in 2019 we did partner with the Aspen Institute, which as you know, for decades under the leadership of Dan Glickman, former Congressman Dan Glickman, has managed both Member and staff delegations to many different parts of the world. This was a trip that included senior staff members, both Republicans and Democrats, both from the House and the Senate................................ It was fully approved in advance by the House Ethics Committee, and in my view was an illustration of what an institution like Carnegie should do, which is to provide congressional staff members with an opportunity to engage directly with Chinese counterparts and to express their concerns about Chinese actions and malign behavior quite directly. So in that sense, I think it was a good illustration of what a nongovernmental institution like Carnegie working with the Aspen Institute can do....................................... But I share your concerns about foreign influence operations. And as I said, we've tried to demonstrate in our work at Carnegie over the time that I was president our appreciation of that threat............................................... Vice Chairman Rubio. My second and final question is about Tsinghua University, which has been designated by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute as a very high risk for its level of defense research and alleged involvement in cyber-attacks. Carnegie, while you were there, worked with Tsinghua University to set up the Carnegie-Tsinghua Center in Beijing, a center that features seven individuals who work at the university as its guiding scholars, who have ties to the Communist Party.............................................. Two of the Center's senior fellows serve in senior Chinese Communist Party roles. And the Center partnered with the Center for China and Globalization, a Beijing think tank associated and linked to the Communist Party--whose president is linked to the Communist Party's efforts via the--he plays a prominent role with the United Front, which is a group that Xi Jinping has called China's secret weapon.................. I'm curious. What conditions, restrictions did the Chinese impose in order for this Center to be set up?................ Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator Rubio, you're right. I mean, the Center that Carnegie operates in Beijing--and has for more than a decade--is a partnership with Tsinghua University. During my time as president, I was extraordinarily careful to ensure that the arrangements that we had as a nongovernmental organization operating there allowed us to continue to do independent work and that has been the case over the last six years........................ I have also made clear to my colleagues at Carnegie that the moment we were constrained in doing that independent work, we would cease operations because our point is not simply to exist. Carnegie's point is not to exist in centers in different parts of the world. It is to do high-quality, independent work. When that becomes impossible or our scholars are self-censoring, then that is the moment at which it becomes no longer feasible to operate there............... Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you................................. Chairman Warner. Senator Feinstein?............................ Senator Feinstein. Thanks Mr. Chairman......................... Over a decade ago, Mr. Burns, the CIA engaged in the use of waterboarding and other so-called enhanced interrogation techniques during interrogations. You provided straightforward answers in the pre-hearing questions, and I appreciate that, but I want to cover this topic because I believe it remains a priority to ensure that we never return to this...................................................... So let me ask you the same types of questions that I asked Directors Coats, Pompeo, and Haspel when they were before us. Do you agree that current law prohibits any interrogation techniques not allowed by the United States Army Field Manual on interrogation?............................................ Ambassador Burns. Senator Feinstein, it is good to see you..... I believe that waterboarding does constitute torture under the law. As you well know, this issue of the enhanced interrogation techniques has been a settled matter for more than a decade. They were prohibited by President Obama in 2009; and then under the leadership of Senator McCain, the Congress enshrined this in legislation to ensure that the only permissible interrogation methods were those allowed in the Army Field Manual........................................ I think it's fair to say we all learned some very hard lessons in the period after 9/11. It is very important--it is crucial to be mindful of those lessons and to move forward. And so it's in that spirit that I also share Director Haines's view that we should not take actions against or prejudice the careers of officers who may have worked in those programs at a time when they were operating under Department of Justice guidelines and at the direction of the President............. So to answer your question specifically, again, I am certainly committed to what the law provides right now and to ensuring that those enhanced interrogation methods are never again used by CIA. They certainly will not be under my leadership, if I am confirmed............................................ Senator Feinstein. Well, thank you very much for that answer. It certainly was fulsome and I greatly respect the fact that you came forward with it in the way in which you did......... As noted in the Intelligence Community's statement for the record in 2019 and our most recent worldwide threats assessment hearing, China has the ability to launch cyberattacks that cause localized temporary disruptive effects on critical infrastructure, natural gas pipelines, for days or weeks; and Russia has the ability to execute cyberattacks in the United States that generate localized temporary disruptive effects on critical infrastructure, electrical distribution networks, for at least few hours, and so on. I am concerned by this and want to know how we address this threat.................................................. So here's the question......................................... What do you believe is the appropriate role for the CIA in diminishing these types of cyber threats to our critical infrastructure? And what else could the CIA be doing to help ensure the integrity of national cyber security?............. Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator. As the hearing that this Committee conducted yesterday underscored, the SolarWinds attack, that cyberattack, was a very harsh wake-up call I think for all of us about the vulnerabilities of supply chains and critical infrastructure in both the private sector and the public sector in this country. And we have seen in recent years how both the Chinese leadership as well as the Russian leadership have an aggressive determination to take advantage of those vulnerabilities...................... I first saw this when I was Ambassador in Moscow in 2007, and the Russians staged--Vladimir Putin's Russia staged--a very determined cyberattack on Estonia, a small NATO ally of the United States................................................ So if this is a harsh wake-up call, then I think it's essential for the CIA in particular to work even harder to develop our capabilities to help detect these kind of attacks when they come from external players, from foreign players, which is the responsibility of the CIA--to help attribute those. Because without attribution, it is very difficult to deter future attacks, continue to develop our own technological and cyber capabilities as a part of that potential deterrence.... And then at the same time to deepen partnerships across the Intelligence Community with domestic agencies like FBI and the Department of Homeland Security; with the private sector, where there is a shared interest in helping to shore up these vulnerabilities in critical infrastructure; and then finally and not least, with foreign partners as well, many of whom, as I mentioned in the case of Estonia, have faced these same kind of threats. Where we can learn from their experience and working together. Not only build better defenses, but also begin to build leverage against adversaries, and over time, I have been convinced, work with like-minded countries, allies, and partners not only to build leverage but to build rules of the road that help protect critical infrastructure--that help make clear international understandings that certain kinds of critical infrastructure are off-limits for those kind of cyberattacks................................................. That will take time, it will take enormous effort, but I think the CIA and intelligence can be an important part of that effort....................................................... Senator Feinstein. Thank you very much. Thanks, Mr. Chairman... Chairman Warner. Senator Burr?................................. Senator Burr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ambassador, welcome..... Ambassador Burns. Good to see you, Sir......................... Senator Burr. Hard to believe that we have known each other for over a quarter-century. I'm sure as you drove to the Hill today it reminded you of some of the battle zones you have served in. You have not been given vacation spots at your time at the State Department and I think this Committee is grateful to you for your service up until now and, more importantly, for what you are about to embark on............. Bill, as you know it is difficult for Federal agencies to recruit talent today. It is particularly difficult in an agency that requires security clearances. Do you have any idea today how you might want to restructure the recruitment process so that you can begin to onboard people earlier?..... It is difficult to recruit out of a university or graduate school and say: we've got a job for you but in a year after you have cleared security clearance.......................... Do you see a need to revamp that in a way that allows you to bring that talent in?........................................ Ambassador Burns. Senator Burr, yes I do, and I have seen through my own experience at another agency at the State Department the price that you pay when security clearance processes drag on and on. You lose good people; it becomes very difficult to recruit the kind of workforce, particularly a diverse workforce, that CIA requires to be effective. And so one of my high priorities, if I am confirmed, will be to take a hard look at that issue............................... I know work has gone on in the past on this. I know previous Directors have worked hard at this issue, but I agree with you on its significance, and you can't hope to have effective recruitment processes unless we find a way to streamline that process...................................................... Senator Burr. Well, the Chairman has been outspoken on it, and I am sure he will be dogged as it relates to the way forward. Ambassador, you speak three languages. Talk to us about how you see language requirements within the Agency going forward. Is it a priority?............................................... Ambassador Burns. It has to be a priority, Senator. I know it was a priority for Gina Haspel as well, and I greatly respect that......................................................... Human intelligence cuts right to the core of CIA's unique role and responsibilities and a part of gathering that human intelligence which complements technical means that CIA and other parts of the Intelligence Community have made enormous progress on in recent years. But they are not a substitute for human intelligence. A part of that collection effort has to require, does require, a facility in foreign languages.... And so, as I discussed when I was talking about the high priority that I would attach to China if I'm confirmed as Director, a part of that intelligence--a part of that priority--requires expanding the number of Mandarin language speakers in CIA and making that a priority and continuing to work to expand other hard language facility at the Agency. It's crucially important..................................... Senator Burr. You've heard and you will hear Members on this Committee all talk about technology. And I think most of us would agree that the United States is behind as it relates to our ability to adapt new technologies. We're slow; we fight it........................................................... The reason that many of our adversaries have made the gains that they have is because of their willingness to accept technology, to use technology, to leverage that against what we built..................................................... How do you intend to use technology both in the workforce and in the tradecraft to make sure that we fully take advantage of what I think is the greatest innovative country in the world?....................................................... Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, I think you're exactly right. CIA has a rich history of innovation and agility and technology, but if I'm confirmed, I recognize that we're going to have to work even harder to be innovative and to be agile........................................................ You mentioned tradecraft, one of the big challenges today in operational tradecraft is ubiquitous technical surveillance, the capacity of a number of our adversaries to make it much more complicated to conduct traditional tradecraft. And so the Agency, like so many other parts of the U.S. Government, is going to have to adapt to that kind of a challenge. I'm entirely confident that the women and men of CIA are capable of that...................................................... It's also going to require--Senator, this is the one point I would add--greater effort to work with the private sector as well so that we cannot only keep pace with technological progress, but get out ahead of it. That's exactly what our adversaries are doing and that's what I think we need to put even greater effort into as well............................. Senator Burr. Ambassador, let me remind you that the two introductions that were made for you, one thing they both highlighted, the need for the partnership with this Committee and with the CIA. I know you embrace that fully and for that, we're grateful. I look forward to your confirmation.......... Ambassador Burns. Thank you, Sir. I look forward to it as well. Senator Burr. Thank you........................................ Chairman Warner. Senator Wyden................................. Senator Wyden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman......................... Mr. Ambassador, at the risk of this becoming a full-fledged bouquet-tossing contest, I want to just register a couple of areas that you've been involved in that are especially important to me. Your track record on human rights is, I think, a real attribute for this job and of course your experience at the State Department. It is rare that we see people with that kind of background. So, we're very appreciative of having you here.............................. Let me start--and I think we touched on it--with respect to this matter of correcting false statements. If you or any other CIA officials says something publicly that is inaccurate, will you correct the public record?.............. Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, as we discussed, I believe it's a serious responsibility. If I'm confirmed as CIA Director--if in the case of a policymaker making a statement that I judge later to be at variance with intelligence that we provided, to work with that policymaker to try to correct that statement and to get it right. I think, as you well know, Senator, that cuts right to the core of building credibility and building trust, which are the foundations, I think, for sound policy choices as well. So, I would certainly take that very seriously in doing everything I can to correct the record........................................ Senator Wyden. Very good....................................... My second question deals with this question of technology and I'm glad that you staked out the ground that'll be a priority for you. A major technology challenge will be to protect sources and methods while not hiding the legal interpretations that are used to conduct operations. And I'm especially troubled by situations in which the government goes around the courts and buys Americans private records from data brokers, people who are basically unregulated. It's one of the sleaziest operations I know of.................... And I'm actually introducing legislation, ``The Fourth Amendment Is Not for Sale Act,'' here very shortly. We talked about this with Director Haines at her confirmation process, and I would like to ask you whether you would make public the circumstances under which the Intelligence Community--excuse me: under which the CIA as part of the Intelligence Community purchases commercially available information and the legal basis for doing so?.......................................... Ambassador Burns. Yes, Senator, I share Director Haines's view that it would be very valuable to lay out a framework that makes clear to the American people the guidelines and the legal boundaries within which we would undertake those activities. So, I'm a strong believer in transparency and I share Director Haines's commitment........................... Senator Wyden. Now, with respect to accountability: in 2013, the CIA acknowledged that it had fallen short in holding people accountable for failures associated with the management of the torture program. And I want to use my words carefully here because this has been a subject of some debate....................................................... So, my question is: the CIA then recommended, and I believe what the discussion was about was going forward, that it broadened accountability reviews to consider systemic problems and officers responsible for those systemic problems, as well as management failures. So, this was a recommendation of a long time ago, 2013...................... Do you agree with the CIA's 2013 recommendation and will you implement it so that, going forward, everybody is clear about the fact that it will be followed?........................... Ambassador Burns. I will, Senator.............................. I attach great importance to accountability. I will certainly follow-through on that if I'm confirmed as Director. I do think it's important in conducting accountability review processes to also look at ways in which you can address systemic problems as well.................................... Senator Wyden. I think that's constructive and I want to work with you on the timeline. This will be something we'll talk about on another occasion; but since it was recommended in 2013, that's been a long time. We've got to get it done...... Last question is: over the years, the CIA has at times impeded congressional oversight by limiting briefings to the so- called ``Gang of Eight,'' limiting staff access to important programs and operations, and failing to inform the Committee at all. Will you conduct a thorough review of where the CIA has engaged in any of these practices and report back to the full Committee so that all of us--every Member--will know how access can be expanded?...................................... Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, if I'm confirmed, I certainly will be committed to trying to provide as much information as possible to the broader Committee on sensitive operations and collection. And I do commit to reviewing the practices of my predecessors with regard to what information was restricted to Gang of Eight and to working with all of you on this Committee on that issue...................................... Senator Wyden. Good. I just want to tell my colleagues I'll be supporting Ambassador Burns and look forward to working with him.......................................................... Chairman Warner. Senator Collins............................... Senator Collins. Thank you..................................... Ambassador Burns, welcome...................................... Ambassador Burns. Thank you.................................... Senator Collins. I first want to express my appreciation to you for engaging in an extensive conversation with me about the CIA officials who have been the subject of these terrible attacks that have left them with, in some cases, permanent traumatic brain injuries..................................... And I was very glad that both the Chairman and the Vice Chairman brought up this issue to you. I know that we have your firm commitment to ensure that those who have been injured receive the best possible--best possible--medical care without going through hassles and roadblocks. And I hope we also have your commitment to focus on identifying the perpetrator of these heinous attacks......................... Ambassador Burns. Senator, I very much appreciated our earlier conversations on these issues as well. And I just reemphasize my commitment on both of those counts to doing everything I can, if I'm confirmed as Director, to help get to the bottom of who's responsible for those attacks and second----........ Chairman Warner. Ambassador Burns, could you scoot your mic a little bit closer?........................................... Ambassador Burns. Sure, is that better?........................ Chairman Warner. Yes........................................... Ambassador Burns.--and commit not only to trying to get to the bottom of who's responsible, but also to ensure that my future colleagues get the care that they and their families deserve, whether it's at Walter Reed or National Institute of Health or elsewhere. And I look forward very much to working with you on those issues..................................... And I know there are a range of other issues affecting the care and well-being of my future colleagues, those who, for example, have served as a paramilitary officers over the course of recent years and have made enormous sacrifices in the last two decades who also face genuine health challenges. And I also commit to trying to ensure that they get the best care possible as well........................................ Senator Collins. Thank you..................................... In the questions for the record, you were asked about the Confucius Institutes that are on some of our college campuses. And I was pleased to see that you agree that the Chinese Communist Party uses these institutes as an instrument for propaganda.................................... Two questions. First, could you elaborate on how the Chinese Communist Party uses these Confucius Institutes to advance its goals? And second, what would be your advice to any college campus that is still hosting a Confucius Institute?.. Ambassador Burns. Senator, thanks for the question............. I think, you know, what the Confucius Institutes do--and I'm no expert on them--is to promote a narrative of Xi Jinping's China which is designed to build sympathy for what is, in my view, a quite aggressive leadership which has engaged in conduct and conducted an adversarial approach to relations with the United States. So, in that sense, that particular dimension of foreign influence operations constitutes a genuine risk................................................. And so, my advice for any institutions in the United States, including academic institutions, is to be extraordinarily careful of what the motives are for a variety of institutions like that and to be very careful in engaging them............ Senator Collins. Would you recommend that they shut them down?. Ambassador Burns. I mean, if I were a president of a college or university and had a Confucius Institute, that's certainly what I would do.............................................. Senator Collins. Thank you..................................... Chairman Warner. Senator Heinrich?............................. Senator Heinrich Thank you, Chairman. Welcome, Ambassador...... Ambassador Burns. Hi, Senator.................................. Senator Heinrich. Thanks for the time that we were able to connect earlier.............................................. You've been a customer of the CIA's intelligence for many years in your various roles at state, so you're no stranger to the Agency, to the value that it brings. But if you're confirmed, you'll be the first--and it looks like you're off to a good start, by the way--but you'll be the first career diplomat to serve as Director of the Agency.............................. So, you'll be in a really good position to help ensure that good intelligence is in the service of good policy........... So, talk to us a little about, at the 30,000-foot level, just how you intend to leverage your diplomatic experience in this new role that is very different from what you did before..... Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks very much, Senator. And I enjoyed our earlier conversation as well. As you said, I've had long experience both in the field and in senior policymaking jobs in Washington in working with the CIA, and I absolutely agree with you that good intelligence delivered with honesty and integrity is the critical foundation for sound policy choices......................................... I had a very positive experience as a chief of mission working overseas, working with intelligence colleagues. They understood that, as the chief of mission, I was the President's representative on the ground. I led country teams, which in the case, for example, Moscow when I was Ambassador there from 2005-2008, was still one of our biggest embassies in the world. There were more than two dozen agencies in that country team................................ So, they understood--CIA station chief did--their obligation to keep me fully and currently informed. In return, I respected their professionalism and trusted it, and I didn't micromanage. I can't remember one instance when I was a chief of mission either in Moscow or in Jordan where we had to elevate an issue because we had a difference to Washington... Now, when I was Deputy Secretary of State, there were several instances, not a large number, where differences between a chief of mission and a chief of station were raised to my level. And I was able to work out with my counterpart, the Deputy Director of CIA, in virtually all of those instances a reasonable approach. I can count on less than one hand the number of times we had to elevate that even higher........... So, I raise that only because I think there's no substitute in the end for good leadership and professionalism and trust in making that relationship work, and in understanding the critical role of unvarnished intelligence in the policymaking process...................................................... Senator Heinrich. I think that's a helpful answer in setting up my next question as well, which is this is a remarkable agency. It has some of the most talented people in service to our country of any agency in existence. But as I mentioned in our recent conversation, when things do get awry, sometimes it is because of things that are inherent to the culture of the Agency................................................... It can be resistant to change, resistant to transparency, not always welcoming of outsiders. And you told me you're familiar with this concern from your time working with the Agency overseas.............................................. I'm just curious. If you're confirmed, how would you approach, especially as an outsider, the cultural challenges that can be inherent in an agency like this?.......................... Ambassador Burns. Well, I'm certainly familiar with the cultural identity of different institutions. I mean, my old institution, the State Department, has its own share of tribalism and cultural challenges to be overcome. It's not a perfect institution either................................... I have enormous respect for career public servants, whether it's at state--or now I hope at CIA. And, you know, you have to understand what drives different professionals in that organization. If you're a case officer overseas, that requires an enormous amount of professional skill and courage and creativity as well, and that's a huge asset for the promotion of American interests around the world. Analysts at CIA are noted for their honesty, for their willingness to speak truth to power......................................... And that's why it's so essential for a Director to have their backs and to defend them when they do that, and to make sure that we're trying to get the best out of all of those different roles at the Agency to keep pace with technological change as well, which is another of the great assets, I think, of CIA, and to be able to integrate all of those skills and all of those cultures in a way that serves the national interest. And that's what I'll be determined to do.. Chairman Warner. Senator Blunt?................................ Senator Blunt. Thank you, Chairman. And thank you, Senator Heinrich. I was going to cover exactly those two topics, understanding the building. I did read in some of the articles on this the CIA agents you had worked with over the years were incredibly confident that as a consumer of this information you'd bring a lot to the job..................... I think Robert Richer said: Burns knows the building. And I think your response to Senator Heinrich suggests that you've thought more about the conversation we had about the importance of being engaged in that culture in an imminent way.......................................................... I'm wondering, Ambassador, as maybe the person who's been the biggest consumer of CIA assistance and information who would have ever had this job, how would you think that would impact you structuring how the product comes out and how the Agency works as it relates to thinking about the real ultimate goal of the information is not for the CIA to make any decision, but to get it to the consumer in a way that an ambassador or somebody in the administration or a Member of Congress can fully understand the information in the best possible way?... Ambassador Burns. Thanks so much, Senator, because it cuts right to the core of what my responsibilities will be if I'm confirmed. You know, as a senior policymaker and consumer of intelligence from the CIA, what mattered most to me was that I got their honest judgment on issues, even when it might be inconvenient or unwelcome in some ways because it just complicated what was an already complicated set of policy choices...................................................... But what I learned, sometimes the hard way over my career, is that unless you're getting unvarnished intelligence without a hint of politics or policy agenda, it becomes impossible to have an effective policy process. You also want to get it as quickly as you can, with regard, for example, to issues of attribution, whether there is a cyber-threat like the one the Committee was discussing yesterday, being able to get to the bottom of that is absolutely crucial to trying to sort through policy choices as well............................... So I think that the better the connection, in a way, between policymakers who understand what it takes to produce high- quality intelligence and produce it in a timely way, and intelligence professionals who understand what policymakers are wrestling with as they try to sort through what are almost inevitably a set of unappealing choices--I think that becomes crucial to an effective process...................... Senator Blunt. I think this has already come up before but I think you want to be sure that this Committee becomes an informed ally in the effort to be sure that the artificial intelligence, the machine learning helps you, is adequate to get things narrowed down to where an individual should be looking at them.............................................. There is more and more information all of the time and how you get that information to the point where you can in your very best possible way analyze it is going to be, I think, increasingly important....................................... You know, we first met when you were in Moscow and the Ambassador there. How do you think your understanding of Moscow, of Russia, of Putin is going to be helpful as you advise both this Committee and the President?................ Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator Blunt and I remember fondly our meeting now almost 15 years ago, I think, in Moscow. You know most of my white hair came from my service in Russia over the years, and in particular in dealing with Vladimir Putin's Russia...................................... What I have learned is that it is always a mistake to underestimate Putin's Russia; that while Russia may be in many ways a declining power, it can be at least as disruptive under Putin's leadership as rising powers like China. And so we have to be quite cold-eyed in our view of how those threats can emerge........................................... And what I have also learned, even though I will set aside my former policymaker role, is that in dealing with those threats, responding to them and deterring them, firmness and consistency is hugely important. And it's also very important to work to the maximum extent possible with allies and partners..................................................... We have more effect sometimes on Putin's calculus when he sees responses coming--firm responses coming--not just from the United States but from our European allies and others as well. So it pays off to work hard at widening that circle of countries who are going to push back......................... Senator Blunt. Well thank you, Ambassador. I look forward to supporting your nomination and to the relationship when you are confirmed that you will have with this Committee, which is incredibly important for us and I hope it turns out to be equally important for you.................................... Ambassador Burns. I look forward to it, Senator. Thank you..... Senator Blunt. Thank you, Chairman............................. Chairman Warner. Senator King on WebEx......................... Senator King. Mr. Ambassador, welcome to the Committee......... Ambassador Burns. Hi, Senator.................................. Senator King. It's great to be with you and I realized when you were being introduced today that you and I had something in common. Both of us took the Foreign Service exam some decades ago, the only difference was that you passed and I didn't. But we won't dwell on that, but I appreciate having you here. There's been a lot of talk today, rightly so, about truth to power. And sometimes that sounds too easy and my concern is it's more subtle than somebody mendaciously doctoring intelligence or changing it. It's human nature to want to tell the boss what they want to hear......................... And so the question is: how do we build a structure to be sure that that is the ongoing policy and that we don't slip into a kind of a comfortable relationship with the President or this Committee or the Secretary of Defense where it is more of an unconscious process but the result is the same: biased intelligence that will undermine good decision-making?....... Give me some thoughts on that, please.......................... Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator King, it is good to see you and I think you are absolutely right. Speaking truth to power has to be more than a slogan and it is often easier said than done. You know, I think the tone gets set at the top......... I have known President Biden for a quarter century and have great respect for him and when he told me--literally almost the first thing he said when he asked me to take on this role--that he expected me and CIA to deliver intelligence to him straight. I know that he meant it and I think setting that tone at the top is crucially important.................. I know it can become difficult in the press of crises and policymaking to lose sight of the importance of delivering unadulterated intelligence judgments, and it's important to remain mindful of that over time and be reminded of it as I know all of you on this Committee will remind me............. All I can say is that I am acutely aware of the importance of playing that role. I know it's a different role than the one I have played in the past as a policymaker, as an ambassador overseas. But I look forward to it because I do understand from those perspectives how crucial it is to have intelligence, the best possible intelligence that CIA can collect, delivered with honesty and integrity. And that is what I intend to do.......................................... Senator King. In order to effectuate that I hope that you will provide strong support to the ombudsman program, to the analytical integrity program that is ongoing so that the commitment you have from the President extends throughout the Agency....................................................... To followup, in your memoir in 2019 you said that your greatest professional regret was your failure to effectively communicate your concerns prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It seems to me that is an example of what exactly we are talking about................................................ Share that experience, if you will............................. Ambassador Burns. Sure. Well, first, Senator, I do agree with you on the important role that the ombudsman plays. And if I am confirmed as Director, I will do everything I can to defend and strengthen that role because it does give analysts an opportunity if they have concerns about pressures or politicization to raise them as well......................... I tried to write honestly in the memoir that I published a couple of years ago about my experience when I was serving as the head of the Near East Bureau in the State Department for Colin Powell, a leader for whom I have enormous respect, in the run-up to the Iraq War. And what I tried to do along with my colleagues was to be honest about concerns that we had about how complicated the day-after in Iraq would be, even if the U.S. military successfully overthrew Saddam Hussein-- which I didn't doubt would be the case....................... A couple of colleagues of mine and I, Ryan Crocker, who later became U.S. Ambassador in the hardest places around the world, and David Pierce wrote a memo in the summer of 2002 to Secretary Powell which we entitled ``The Perfect Storm.'' We tried, imperfectly, to lay out our concerns about everything that could go wrong in the run-up to the war in Iraq and on the days after............................................... It was imperfect. We got it about half right and half wrong in terms of many of the problems we tried to identify. But I mention it only because it was an honest effort to express our concerns. And I think that is what is incumbent--whether you are in a policymaking role as I was then at the State Department or in a senior intelligence role--is to be straightforward about your concerns, because without that, policy choices suffer........................................ Senator King. Exactly. Thank you. Well thank you Mr. Ambassador and I also will join my colleagues. I look forward to working with you. The relationship with this Committee is very important because, separately from all other agencies, most other agencies in the U.S. Government, nobody is watching the CIA except us; and therefore, you have got to be as open as possible with us so that we can meet our responsibility to the American people to be sure that this secret organization--which is sort of an anomaly in a democracy--is being overseen and supervised by elected representatives. So I look forward to working with you........................... Thank you Mr. Chairman. I yield back........................... Ambassador Burns. I do, too, Senator King...................... Chairman Warner. I just want to make clear for Members, the procedures we are operating with today I know it's a little different than the past. We are doing questions in order of seniority among those present when the hearing was gaveled to order........................................................ Senator Cornyn?................................................ Senator Cornyn. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for saying yes to President Biden and congratulations. And again, thank you for assuming this important role. I can't think of anybody that has the breadth of experience that you have had in the world, which leads me just to--I am just kind of curious. I know you have been exposed to a lot of foreign intelligence services over your 34 years or so in the Foreign Service.............. Are there other intelligence services around the world--any of them that sort of stand out as having what you believe would be commendable organizations or operations or structures that are something the U.S. Government ought to consider in terms of structuring, organizing, or operating our intelligence services?.................................................... Ambassador Burns. Well, I think there are a number of intelligence services, especially amongst our allies and partners, that I've admired over the years. Again, I've been looking at it from the perspective of a diplomat. Certainly, British intelligence service, the French, some of our closest European allies, I think, are first rate partners............ Certainly the Israeli intelligence services I've known over the years are extremely capable and have also, I think, worked hard on the technology issue that we were discussing before, which is extremely important................................. We've also had intelligence services who are close partners in the war on terrorism over the last 20 years, whose capabilities, I think, at least in my experience, have been enhanced over recent years, sometimes because of the cooperation with U.S. intelligence services. And that's going to be extremely important moving forward..................... So, I think there's something we could learn from those intelligence services. And we also have to pay very careful attention to the capabilities of our adversaries as well, whether it's the Russian intelligence services, which I've had experience with over the years, or Chinese intelligence services, as well............................................ It's important not to underestimate them. They're putting a great deal of effort into technological development and we see that on the part of smaller adversarial intelligence services, whether it's the Iranians or others as well. So, it's important not to underestimate their capabilities--and learn where we can........................................... Senator Cornyn. On another topic, one of the things we learned from this pandemic is our vulnerability to supply chains from overseas. And I think you and I may have talked a little bit about my interest--and Chairman Warner and actually Senator Cotton and the whole Congress, really, now--in reassuring our ability to manufacture the most sophisticated semiconductors. China, I understand, is building about 16 fabs, while the Taiwan semiconductor is planning on building one in Arizona. But we need to approach, I think, some of these national security challenges we have with China in a different way.... What I mean by that is, we're so ossified and stove-piped here in Congress in terms of the way we do things. Let's say the appropriations process came to providing some sort of financial incentive for the development of some technology like--well, like a semiconductor fab. That doesn't quite fit very well into our structure of appropriations and budget caps and subcommittee appropriations and the like............ But I wish you would work with us and give some thought, not only to what those vulnerabilities are and how we rack them and stack them and address them in terms of the priorities and the vulnerability that currently exists, but help us find ways to perhaps modify, change, reform, or just adapt to the new competition we have with China, where they're investing billions of dollars in everything from 5G to AI to quantum computing and others. And we can't afford to let them win.... Will you commit to working with us on the challenge?........... Ambassador Burns. I certainly will, Senator. And I do admire the work that you and Senator Cotton and others have done over the course of recent months and years to highlight that problem, supply chain vulnerability.......................... Semiconductors, as you mentioned, is a classic illustration of that as well. And not only do I look forward to working with you on those issues, but I promise it'll be high priority at CIA if I'm confirmed, to understand from the perspective we bring from abroad the ways in which some of our adversaries and rivals can take advantage of those vulnerabilities. And then, through intelligence partnerships with some of our allies and partners, to look at ways in which we can coordinate efforts to shore up supply chains as well because it's not a vulnerability that's unique to the United States, as you well know, Senator. So, I'll look forward very much to working with you on that..................................... Senator Cornyn. If the Chairman will indulge me and let me just ask one final question....................................... Chairman Warner. A short question because----.................. Senator Cornyn. On nuclear proliferation....................... Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir..................................... Senator Cornyn. Do you think Iran can ever be trusted with a nuclear weapon?.............................................. Ambassador Burns. No, Sir. No, I think it's absolutely important for the United States to continue to do everything we can to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapon...... Senator Cornyn. Thank you very much............................ Chairman Warner. Senator Bennet................................ Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Ambassador, for your willingness to serve. We are very, very grateful that you're coming back...................................... You had mentioned that enhanced competition with an increasingly threatening Chinese Communist Party constitutes one of our greatest long-term challenges. As Chairman Warner said, the Committee has been closely tracking China's assertive moves from aggressive investments in port infrastructure on some of the world's most strategic coasts to exportation of illiberal surveillance regimes to investments intended to put our advantages in space at risk.. In addition to China, you listed off, I think, nuclear proliferation, climate, global health, technology as things where we need a long-term--you said, I think, a long-term, clear-eyed approach. And you have worked in these--in countries with authoritarian regimes. We obviously are a democracy.................................................... It was a poignant, I think, to see those two luminaries introduce you this morning as a reminder of the time when people actually could find a way to work together in this democracy. And I wanted to ask you your thoughts about how you, as the Director of the CIA, could elevate the view a little bit here to make sure that we're looking out 10 years and 20 years instead of just between the commercial breaks on the cable television at night................................ How do we, as a democracy, competing in a world with totalitarian societies, seize an opportunity here to actually compete and win and succeed? I'd just be interested in your perspective about how--...................................... Ambassador Burns. Sure......................................... Senator Bennet. How you can help us elevate our view?.......... Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, first, I think it is important to approach all of those formidable challenges you just described with a sense of confidence because, while I recognize that the international landscape is changing fast, we're in a period of profound transformation................. The United States may no longer be the singular dominant player we were when I worked for Secretary Baker 30 years ago. But I would still argue we have a better hand to play than any of our major rivals. And that's because of our capacity for domestic renewal which I know has been tested in recent years. But it's hugely important and it sets us apart from authoritarian regimes around the world....................... And second is our capacity to draw on allies and partners, which also sets us apart from lonelier powers like China and Russia today. The second thing I'd stress, just to pick up your point, is it is important--as pressing as immediate crises and immediate threats always are at the CIA or anywhere else in the U.S. Government--you have to be able to look over the horizon a little bit. You mentioned one very good example of that which is space, which I know is something you been very much focused on...................... Here is an area in which our adversaries are working overtime to try to develop their capabilities which can threaten American critical infrastructure and lots of other things that are important to us. It's also an area where there are really no international rules of the road right now, whether it's in terms of commerce or security or anything else....... And so, I think it's incumbent upon CIA to focus on issues like that, to be able to highlight the threat that's growing for American interests. And then to try to think creatively in support of policymakers about, you know, how you anticipate those threats and begin today to plan for the best ways to deal with them............................................... Senator Bennet. We look forward to working with you on all of that, I think. As you write in your book, that period of time that Baker represents was a time when we were in the Cold War and we had an organizing principle of some kind--which didn't mean that we made--didn't make--mistakes. We made mistakes all the time but we had an organizing principle. And I think we lost that at the end of the Cold War in some respects, that organizing principle. And then 9/11 happened and disoriented us............................................... And I think really this moment is an opportunity to reintroduce our values to the rest of the world and do it, as you say, with a sense of optimism. You know, we should have a sense of optimism. A lot of countries that you've served in have had some version of January 6th happen to them. But what they don't have is what happened on January 20th here, which was the peaceful transfer of power. And I think that that should give us some confidence going forward. I hope it gives you confidence................................................... Ambassador Burns. I agree. Absolutely, Senator, I think we ought to approach, however formidable the challenges are, we ought to approach them with a sense of confidence and optimism. That's what, in my long experience serving overseas for the U.S. Government, whether people like our policies or hate them. What they expect from Americans is problem- solving, a sense of possibility, a sense of optimism......... That's what they admire most about our society when it's operating at its best, and that's what they hope to see from American leadership in the world. It is just as you said, Senator: we don't always get it right. We don't have a monopoly on wisdom. But we ought not to underestimate that core strength that American society has and brings to the world........................................................ Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador................................................... Chairman Warner. Senator Sasse?................................ Senator Sasse. Thank you, Chairman. Ambassador, congratulations.............................................. Ambassador Burns. Hi, Senator.................................. Senator Sasse. Thank you for the time you spent with us in the run-up to this. And I'll just say this Committee, as is well- known to the Members and to you, is different than most committees on the Hill. And it's I think usually because we don't have cameras. Usually people don't have any incentive to make grandstanding speeches. And this Committee works a lot better than most......................................... But I also just want to commend you on the substance of your opening statement. Confirmation hearings are usually an exercise in defense where people don't want to say anything that could get them in trouble if they look likely to be confirmed, and you actually said a ton of substantive things. I also think your answers to Senator Rubio about CCP influence operations were meaty, so thank you for that....... So, this is not a hostile question at all. It's genuinely a sympathetic question to your nomination. But you said in your opening statement that I think the biggest for priorities that you have are China, tech, human capital, and--I forget the term you used. I wrote down `àlliances.''............... Ambassador Burns. Partnerships, yes............................ Senator Sasse. Personnel and partnerships. I think that's exactly the right issues that for our IC. I think that's the right set, and I think it's the right order. So, first of all, congratulations on having a substantive view of the important calling that you face.............................. It's not bad that we've had to go through an evolution as a Nation on our China policy, because everybody in a bipartisan way 20 years ago had a very different view about how things might work out with the Chinese leadership. Obviously, that hasn't happened.............................................. Could you walk us through a little bit of your evolution, because you had different positions in, say, 2013. I think I detect even an evolution from your `Àtlantic'' piece, which I read last June/July, to your really meaty stuff today. So, not a hostile question, but walk us through your evolution in the last two or three years of how you think about the CCP... Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator, very much. You know, I think the truth is that Xi Jinping's China--I mentioned the term ``wake-up call'' earlier in response to SolarWinds--but I think the evolution of Xi Jinping's China over the last six or seven years has been a very sharp wake-up call in a lot of ways, the kind of aggressive, undisguised ambition and assertiveness that I think has made very clear the nature of the adversary and rival that we face today................... And I think that's been true across partisan lines, not just in the Congress, but across our society. And the challenge, therefore, is how do you build a long-term--and I would emphasize the term ``long-term'' because we have to buckle up for the long haul, I think, in competition with China. This is not like the competition with the Soviet Union and the Cold War, which was primarily in security and ideological terms........................................................ This is an adversary that is extraordinarily ambitious in technology and capable in economic terms, as well. And so, it's buckling up for the long term and developing a very clear-eyed bipartisan strategy, which I think is entirely possible right now........................................... My role, if I'm confirmed as Director of CIA, will be to try to ensure not only that we approach this issue with urgency and with a very sharp focus, expand our capabilities over the next couple of years, but then deliver the best possible intelligence about the nature of Chinese intentions and capabilities. That's the only way we'll be able to sustain that kind of long-term strategy.............................. And then the only other thing I'd say, Senator, as we discussed before, a critical part of that is going to be working with allies and partners, because that's where Xi Jinping's China and its wolf-warrior diplomacy has actually created opportunities for us. Because it's helped open the eyes of lots of partners and allies, not just across Asia but in other parts of the world, to the nature of that threat as well. And we need to try to take advantage of that, both in intelligence partnerships and then obviously more broadly in terms of diplomacy........................................... Senator Sasse. I want to transition a little bit to your bureaucratic challenges in trying to reorient the Agency's budget and personnel to the challenges of today, not the challenges of the post-9/11 moment. If we had a lot more time, though, I would also want to drill down a little bit, and I may do that in private in a followup to this during our classified time today. But a lot of us are very worried about Secretary Kerry's undefined role, because Chairman Xi Jinping is going to lie about what they will do on climate. Like, that's not an open question. He's going to lie............... And so, it means if we have all these real technological race challenges between the CCP and freedom-loving Nations, the set of whatever the new NATO for the digital revolution is, the Trans Pacific Partnership plus technology standards-- whatever that thing is, if we take the pressure off in the alliance that we're going to build because there's some climate summit going to happen in 18 or 24 months where he's going to promise a bunch of pie-in-the-sky, then everything we're saying ends up being a house of cards. So, a lot of us are worried about the climate lies that are going to come from China as a way around this.............................. But I would like to ask you, in the post-9/11 moment, it was right for us to be focused on the global CT threat and the spread of jihadism. That's not the biggest challenge we face right now, and yet most of our IC budget and personnel still has these lingering effects of 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, and 2010. How are you going to make sure that the pivot toward the Pacific is really operative in budget and personnel decisions under your leadership?............................. Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator. I look forward to a longer conversation with you on both of the subjects......... Briefly on climate, I just think it's important for the United States to view cooperation with China on climate issues is not a favor to the United States. It's in the self-interest of China to do that. So, in other words, it's not something to be traded. It's in the self-interest of China as well to work on these issues. And it's important for us to be clear eyed about that, as I'm sure the President and Secretary Kerry will be................................................ On the wider question that you raised, I don't have a neat formula to offer to you about the balance between what is a continuing threat posed by terrorists groups, even though we're almost 20 years after 9/11, and what are clearly huge emerging challenges, particularly China, but all the other ones that you mentioned. So, it's going to be critical for the Agency to adapt in terms of resources, in terms of focus, and everything else.......................................... I don't have a neat formula to offer to you today, but I look forward very much to working with you on that because that adaptation inevitably is going to require prioritizing amongst resources and people................................. Senator Sasse. Thank you. I know the Chairman is going to take my mic, so I won't ask the question here but I'll just flag that I'm going to followup with you as well about the Historical Advisory Program.................................. Your memoir shows the importance of declassifying records. We need to protect sources and methods wherever we can. We must. It's essential. But the inertia of motion should eventually be to declassification for public trust and for scholarly purposes. And I think right now the inertia inside most of our agencies is to assume, if someone doesn't proactively declassify, it stays classified.............................. Chairman Warner. Senator Casey?................................ Senator Sasse. And I hope you'll return it to your--to reporting----................................................ Chairman Warner. Senator Cotton has been extraordinarily patient when we switched the order little bit here today, so I want to make sure I don't try his patience any further..... Senator Casey?................................................. Senator Casey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ambassador, great to be with you............................................... Ambassador Burns. Thank you.................................... Senator Casey. I come today to this hearing to express gratitude for three reasons.................................. Number one is for your exemplary public service. I think that's an understatement............................................ Number two, for your service, the service of your family starting with your father and throughout the time that your immediate family has served with you and provided their own measure of service. I'm especially grateful that your father has roots in Pennsylvania, and as I think you've told me before specifically in Scranton, Pennsylvania, which provides a special recognition for me................................. But most importantly maybe for today, your recognition in your opening statement of not only the service but the sacrifices of the men and women of the CIA. You talked about those personal moments that you had in front of that agency memorial wall and knowing some of those who had lost their lives, so I appreciate the fact that you recognize them...... I wanted to ask two questions. One is country specific and one is more broadly about our national security threats. The staff drafted a very good question for a new Member that I'll use. But on China, you said it, and I'm quoting in your opening statement, `Òut-competing China is key to our national security.'' And I agree with that................... Number two, when I consider the economic threats that China poses to a state like Pennsylvania, I've often said that when China cheats, we lose jobs in Pennsylvania. So, I guess just in terms of the threats posed by China, I guess by way of kind of itemization or prioritization, how do you rank them? Technology, economic, military?.............................. How would you assess the basic threats that China poses?....... Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator Casey, it is good to see you again. I think as many of the Members of this Committee have argued eloquently in public, I think technology and competition and technology cuts right to the core of China's capacity to compete in military terms and economic terms as well......................................................... So if I had to underscore the core area that's going to matter most in terms of competition with an adversarial China, I think it cuts right to that issue of technology as we look out over the next decade or more............................. Senator Casey. That is helpful and I wanted to speak more broadly now about national security threats.................. Again, if you could just itemize--if that is possible in a short answer. I know we don't have a lot of time, but the major national security threats that we face. And then in particular--and I think this is an important point that the staff made in the materials--how should the CIA be positioned to predict, provide a warning about, and to mitigate these threats?..................................................... Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, one thing I have learned over the years is, while it's very important to have priorities, and I think I would put at the top of the list--as I mentioned in my opening statement--the challenge posed by Xi Jinping's China, by an adversarial China. It is hard for me to see a more significant threat or challenge for the United States as far out as I can see into the 21st century than that one. It is the biggest geopolitical test that we face... Having said that, you know, in the same sentence, I would not want to give short shrift to a range of other challenges out there. As I mentioned, Putin's Russia continues to demonstrate that declining powers can be just as disruptive as rising ones and can make use of asymmetrical tools, especially cyber tools, to do that. So we can't afford to underestimate them........................................... The nonproliferation challenges and the other challenges posed by Iranian behavior, for example, are hugely significant and ones that we can't afford to ignore. Across the board, ballistic missile development as well as subversive and destabilizing actions in the Middle East and human rights abuses toward its own people inside Iran as well............. And then, as I said earlier, we have to look ahead as well to those emerging challenges--the problems without passports that we have to deal with that aren't confined to any one nation-state. Whether it's issues of global health insecurity--as you know the American people have faced in full measure over the course of the last year; whether it's the revolution in technology; whether it's other forms of instability or problems, they are going to create challenges for the United States down the road. So you know, if I had to put one set of challenges at the top of the list, it would certainly be China, as I mentioned before. But we just don't have the luxury of neglecting any of those other challenges, as well...................................................... Senator Casey. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador....................... I look forward to supporting your confirmation................. Ambassador Burns. Thank you, Senator........................... Chairman Warner. Senator Cotton?............................... Senator Cotton. Mr. Burns, welcome, thank you.................. Ambassador Burns. Thank you.................................... Senator Cotton. Congratulations on your nomination............. Mr. Burns I want to start by adding my voice to Senator Warner and Senator Collins concerns about the microwave attacks at our embassies around the world. I won't belabor that. I will just say that I share that and I appreciate your commitment to getting to the bottom of it and taking care of anyone who has been injured in it....................................... Ambassador Burns. Thank you.................................... Senator Cotton. More broadly, as we discussed on the phone last week, I have taken an interest over the years in the health of our Special Activities Center inside the CIA specifically, or I should say metaphorical health, in terms of the numbers of paramilitary officers available and the workload we are asking them to bear. But also the literal health, because many of them do suffer the same kind of wounds that our service members face......................................... I just want to speak today publicly about what we discussed on the phone. You do commit to ensuring that these officers and their families have the very best medical care and support available.................................................... Ambassador Burns. Absolutely, Sir. I have seen firsthand the sacrifices that they have made, the courage they have demonstrated, especially over the last 20 years. And so I am absolutely committed to that................................. Senator Cotton. And that includes continuing the work that Director Haspel and her leadership has already started to ensure that these officers have care that is equal to if not better than what we already provide our service members and veterans?.................................................... Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir..................................... Senator Cotton. Thank you...................................... I want to touch briefly on another point that we discussed. You are probably aware that I briefly held Director Haines's nomination to be Director of National Intelligence after an answer to one of her questions had implied that she might reconsider some actions taken on long-concluded accountability review boards related to long-closed terrorist detention programs........................................... I am troubled by some media reports I have seen that suggest a senior CIA officer who was detailed to the DNI has recently had his portfolio reduced because of his involvement in that program. I would just like to get your commitment that if confirmed, you will abide by the determination of the Obama administration not to resurrect any efforts to prosecute or take administrative action against, or prejudice in any way in any future promotion or selection panels, for any CIA officer involved with those programs that were conducted under DOJ guidance and Presidential direction................ Ambassador Burns. Yes, Senator................................. As I mentioned earlier, you have my commitment not to take actions against or prejudice the careers of officers who may have worked on those programs in the past when they were operating under Department of Justice guidelines and at the direction of the President. Yes, Sir......................... Senator Cotton. Thank you. We also talked in our phone call about the importance of everything the CIA does but the centrality of the collection of foreign intelligence; and to put it in military terms, that collection is the main effort at the CIA................................................... Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir..................................... Senator Cotton. And that means primarily the department--or the Directorate of Operations, but also other elements of the Agency: in Science and Technology and the new Digital Directorate. You agree that collection of foreign intelligence is the main effort at the Central Intelligence Agency?...................................................... Ambassador Burns. It is the core of CIA's mission. Analysis in other words, what you do with that collection to put it in a form that is going to be most useful to policymakers, is obviously critical as well. But at the core of what the CIA does is that foreign collection, in particular human intelligence................................................. Senator Cotton. And that is because the collection of foreign intelligence, put in laymen's terms--stealing foreign secrets--it allows those analysts to have an even richer analysis than what they would have if they were only using publicly-available sources, the way, say, an academic or a think tank scholar might?.................................... Ambassador Burns. That is correct. And it does involve, as you said, stealing secrets and doing it in a way that is superior to what our rivals and adversaries try to do................. Senator Cotton. Thank you...................................... We also talked about covert action. I shared my views that too often Administrations in the past of both parties have viewed covert action not as a supplement to policy, but as a substitute for policy........................................ Would you agree with that assessment?.......................... Ambassador Burns. Yes, and I think it is one of the big dangers. I haven't had a chance to be briefed in detail on existing covert action programs, and it is something I would look forward to talking about in closed sessions in the future. But your point about connecting covert action programs at the direction of the President to coherent policy is absolutely crucial. It cannot be a substitute for sound policy choices............................................... Senator Cotton. It is, however, in many cases a sound supplement to a broader foreign policy in that we should not have a reluctance to use it [Inaudible.]..................... Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir. As one tool in a coherent strategy and policy. I absolutely agree with you...................... Senator Cotton. When you were out of government you said, quote: `Ìt is simply impractical to think that the United States will provide significant sanctions relief without assurances that Iran will immediately begin negotiations on a follow-on agreement that at least extends the timelines of the deal and addresses issues of verification and intercontinental ballistic missiles.''....................... I agree........................................................ If confirmed, Mr. Burns, will you provide that same realistic assessment to the Administration, even if it contradicts the Administration's preferred policy approach to negotiations?.. Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir. Senator, on Iran as well as on a whole range of other issues, it will be my obligation if confirmed to deliver those intelligence assessments in a straightforward and unvarnished way.......................... Senator Cotton. Thank you, Mr. Burns. I look forward to talking about some of these other matters later this afternoon....... Ambassador Burns. Thank you, Sir............................... Chairman Warner. Thank you, Senator Cotton. We now have Senator Gillibrand on WebEx.......................................... Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.................... Over the last year alone, according to public reports, Russia attempted to influence the 2020 election and stoke discord in our country; attempted to assassinate a prominent anticorruption activist using nerve agent; and perpetrated the SolarWinds hack, one of the largest cyber intrusions ever that breached sensitive U.S. Government systems.............. Obviously, you have served as Ambassador to Moscow, you speak Russian. Where do you think we should start with the Kremlin? And if you are confirmed, what would be your approach to this profound challenge?.......................................... Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, it is nice to see you and I enjoyed our conversation earlier this week................... Certainly, I think it's a huge mistake, as I said earlier, not to underestimate the challenge and the threat that Vladimir Putin's Russia can pose to the United States. My own view in the past, both serving as a policymaker and then as a private citizen, has been there's no substitute for firmness and consistency in dealing with Putin's Russia, and working as closely as we can with allies and partners who share those same concerns................................................ I know the Biden administration is soon to produce an assessment of all of those issues that you've just mentioned, from SolarWinds to the poisoning and then the cruel absurdity, as the Chairman has put it, publicly of sentencing Alexei Navalny to years in a penal colony for failing to check in with his parole officer, when the reason he failed to check in is that he was in a coma after an attempted assassination attempt clearly sponsored by the Kremlin to poison him to death.......................................... So, there's a whole range of issues on which I know this assessment will not only provide the best intelligence that we are capable of on exactly what happened in those instances, but also a sense of the consequences for them as well. And so, if I'm confirmed, I look forward very much to participating in that effort and what flows from it in the future....................................................... So, the short answer, Senator, is I think there's no substitute for firmness and consistency and being clear eyed, because the reality is that, I think, in terms of American policy of U.S.-Russian relations--as long as Vladimir Putin is the leader of Russia, we're going to be operating within a pretty narrow band of possibilities, from the very sharply competitive to the very nastily adversarial.................. Senator Gillibrand. Yes, I think we also will have a similar challenge with regard to China. And obviously, there is a great deal of strategic competition with China right now, but we also want to have some kind of engagement strategy........ Can you expand upon your views on what you would like to do to approach China?.............................................. Ambassador Burns. Well, I think again, if I'm confirmed as the Director of CIA, my role won't be as a policymaker anymore. But I think the core of sound policy choices is the best intelligence we can provide about the intentions and capabilities of Xi Jinping's China. And that's something that we need to develop ourselves. We need to work closely with allies and partners who share many of those same concerns.... So, as I said earlier, Senator, I think it's absolutely important to be quite clear-eyed about the long-term nature of that challenge from an adversarial China under Xi Jinping's leadership; and to help policymakers think through the various ways in which those threats can emerge, to look carefully at vulnerabilities whether it's in supply chains or in other areas, and to always be mindful of the value for the United States of working closely with allies and partners in developing that intelligence, but also in developing and executing smart policy....................................... Senator Gillibrand. And your third-largest challenge, at least for the Nation and President Biden, is Iran. And I know you were instrumental in the negotiations under the Obama administration............................................... What do you think the approach will be with regard to Iran?.... Ambassador Burns. Well, I've always thought that the key to dealing with the variety of threats that are posed by Iran today is a comprehensive strategy, of which preventing Iran from developing a nuclear weapon is only one part............ It has to be a strategy that pushes back against threatening Iranian actions, whether it's developing ballistic missiles and destabilizing its region or subverting other governments or human rights abuses against its own people. And so, I think in all those areas, we have to be mindful of the fact that, even if Iran returns to full compliance with the comprehensive nuclear agreement and the United States does as well, as President Biden said he's prepared to do, that then needs to be a platform....................................... Secretary Blinken has emphasized a platform for building longer and stronger nuclear constraints, and also for dealing with those other areas of threatening Iranian actions that I mentioned before. I know that's easier said than done, but that needs to be the clear strategy, it seems to me. In my role, if I'm confirmed, will be to help provide the best possible intelligence as policymakers pursue that strategy... Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.................... Chairman Warner. Thank you, Senator Gillibrand................. Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Ambassador...................... Chairman Warner. Well, Ambassador Burns, you got through the first hurdle, 15 out of 16. And if Senator Risch joins us, he will get first crack in the closed session. The hearing will go into recess and we will reconvene at one o'clock. We very much appreciate your testimony............................... Ambassador Burns. Thank you.................................... Vice Chairman Rubio. And again, echoing Senator Wyden's comments, rarely does a nominee come before this Committee with this much positive approval, although rarely does a nominee also bring Jim Baker and Leon Panetta as their introducers.................................................. So, we'll look forward to seeing you at one o'clock............ Ambassador Burns. Thank you.................................... Vice Chairman Rubio. The Committee stands in recess............ [Whereupon at 12:07 p.m. the Committee stood in recess subject to the call of the Chairman.]................................ Supplemental Material [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]

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