Open Hearing: Current and Projected National Security Threats to the United States

[Senate Hearing 113-89] [From the U.S. Government Printing Office] S. Hrg. 113-89 CURRENT AND PROJECTED NATIONAL SECURITY THREATS TO THE UNITED STATES ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ TUESDAY, MARCH 12, 2013 __________ Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Intelligence Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 82-721 WASHINGTON : 2013 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE [Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.] DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California, Chairman SAXBY CHAMBLISS, Georgia, Vice Chairman JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER IV, West RICHARD BURR, North Carolina Virginia JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho RON WYDEN, Oregon DANIEL COATS, Indiana BARBARA A. MIKULSKI, Maryland MARCO RUBIO, Florida MARK UDALL, Colorado SUSAN COLLINS, Maine MARK WARNER, Virginia TOM COBURN, Oklahoma MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico ANGUS KING, Maine HARRY REID, Nevada, Ex Officio MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky, Ex Officio CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Ex Officio JAMES INHOFE, Oklahoma, Ex Officio ---------- David Grannis, Staff Director Martha Scott Poindexter, Minority Staff Director Kathleen P. McGhee, Chief Clerk CONTENTS ---------- MARCH 12, 2013 OPENING STATEMENTS Feinstein, Hon. Dianne, Chairman, a U.S. Senator from California. 1 Chambliss, Hon. Saxby, Vice Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Georgia 3 WITNESS Clapper, Hon. James R., Director of National Intelligence, Accompanied by: Mueller, Hon. Robert, Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation; Brennan, John O., Director, Central Intelligence Agency; Goldberg, Hon. Philip, Assistant Secretary of State for Intelligence and Research; Olsen, Matthew, Director, National Counterterrorism Center; and Flynn, Lt. Gen. Michael T., Director, Defense Intelligence Agency.............. 6 Prepared Statement for the Record on the Worldwide Threat Assessment of the U.S. Intelligence Community by James R. Clapper.................................................... 13 CURRENT AND PROJECTED NATIONAL SECURITY THREATS TO THE UNITED STATES ---------- TUESDAY, MARCH 12, 2013 U.S. Senate, Select Committee on Intelligence, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m., in Room SH-216, Hart Senate Office Building, the Honorable Dianne Feinstein (Chairman of the Committee) presiding. Committee Members Present: Senators Feinstein, Chambliss, Rockefeller, Wyden, Mikulski, Udall (of Colorado), Heinrich, King, Coats, Rubio, and Collins. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, CHAIRMAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA Chairman Feinstein. The Committee will come to order. We meet today in open session, as we've done since 1994, actually, to hear an unclassified briefing from our intelligence leaders on the threats that face our nation; hence the title--the ``World Threat Hearing.'' As Members know, we will immediately follow this session with a closed one, and I'll ask that Members refrain from asking questions here that have classified answers. This hearing is really a unique opportunity to inform the American public, to the extent we can, about the threats we face as a nation and worldwide. Let me begin by welcoming our witnesses and thanking them for being here. They are: The Director of National Intelligence, Jim Clapper, who will provide the opening statement on behalf of the Intelligence Community; the Director of the CIA, new to the job, John Brennan--actually, it's his fifth full day; the Director of the FBI, Bob Mueller, now nearly twelve years on the job, and who, barring another unforeseen intervention by the Congress, is appearing in his last Worldwide Threat Hearing before this Committee--but Bob, you never know; the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Lieutenant General Michael Flynn; the Director of the National Counterterrorism Center, Matt Olsen; and the Assistant Secretary of State for Intelligence and Research, Ambassador Phil Goldberg. So welcome, all of you. DNI Clapper, thank you for your Statement for the Record, which I have read. It's submitted in both classified and unclassified form, and we very much appreciate it. It is clear that the threats to the United States are many. They are diffused, and they are complex. We face a continuing threat at home from terrorist attack, most notably from al- Qa'ida in the Arabian Peninsula, which we call AQAP, but also from home grown extremists, such as Nidal Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter; Najibullah Zazi, who attempted to blow up the New York subway; and Faisal Shahzad, the attempted Times Square bomber. It's notable that the Statement for the Record includes the assessment that, due to recent losses, the core of al-Qa'ida in Pakistan--and I quote--`ìs probably unable to carry out large, complex attacks in the West,'' end quote, although its desire to do so hasn't changed. This appears to be a stronger statement than in the past about the effect of counterterrorism operations against al-Qa'ida. Since last year's threat hearing, our staff has been keeping a tally of terrorism-related arrests in the United States. With the arrest on March 5th of Riaz Khan, for conspiring to provide material support to terrorists in connection with the suicide bombing of ISI headquarters in Pakistan, there have now been 105 terrorism-related arrests in the United States in the past four years. We have actually listed these, and that's the number: 105 arrests in the last four years. In our federal criminal court system, those arrests will most likely lead to a conviction or a guilty plea. If those arrests have not resulted in convictions or guilty pleas, it is only because the case is still ongoing. Another indicator of the success of our criminal justice system in prosecuting terrorists is, in 2011, the Department of Justice released a list of terrorism trials conducted since 2001 and reported a total of 438 convictions from September 11, 2001 to December 31, 2010; so in those nine years, 438 convictions in federal courts. We have also been briefed recently on the detention and arrest of Sulaiman Abu Ghaith, Osama bin Laden's son-in-law and al-Qa'ida spokesman. And I'd like to commend the witnesses for your agencies' work in bringing him to the United States to be prosecuted in the federal criminal court, where he faces a life sentence. Of course, as the terrorist threat has receded, the threat from cyber attack and cyber espionage has grown. We have seen large-scale denial-of-service attacks against United States banks, and recent public reports, including by the computer security firm Mandiant, about massive cyber penetrations and loss of intellectual property from United States businesses. I am very concerned, also, about the instability that seems to be festering across Northern Africa--from Mali to Egypt to Libya and beyond, breeding and harboring a new generation of extremists. Some of the governments in the region are unable or unwilling to take action against these terrorist groups, meaning that the rest of the world will need to focus energy and attention to preventing a safe haven and launching pad for future attacks. In Syria, there is a massive and still-growing humanitarian disaster under way, with no end in sight, as the regime and the opposition appear nearly at a stalemate. This Committee has been very concerned about the possibility that President Bashar Assad would become sufficiently desperate to use its chemical weapons stockpile. And I note that the DNI's statement includes exactly that warning. I know the President has expressed that the use of chemical weapons would be a redline for the United States, and I would predict that the United States Senate would demand a strong and swift response should the use of such weapons occur. Of course, Syria is not the only WMD state to be making headlines. North Korea has claimed a third nuclear weapons test, has displayed a road-mobile ballistic missile, and demonstrated the capability of its Taepodong-2 missile. The regime is now disavowing the 1953 armistice with the South. There's perhaps nowhere else on Earth where the capacity to wreak enormous damage is matched by the possibility of North Korea using their nuclear weapons. Both the Syrian and North Korean examples demonstrate the need to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons, yet its work at Natanz and Fordow continue, and Revolutionary Guard and Hezbollah proxies are growing bolder and more capable of their terrorist attack plotting around the world. So these, and many other threats and challenges, face the Intelligence Community and play a very critical role in providing warning to United States policymakers, and to providing insight to shape their policy decisions. Unfortunately, the IC is being asked to do this work under the self-inflicted damage of sequestration. I know, Director Clapper, that you have been planning for sequestration and would like to speak to its effects. I have an amendment to the appropriations legislation currently on the Senate Floor that will provide the Community with as much flexibility as possible to implement the cuts made by sequestration, in the same way as the rest of the Department of Defense, to make sure that intelligence efforts, and therefore our national security, can proceed as much the same as possible. Let me now turn to the distinguished Vice Chairman, Saxby Chambliss, for his opening remarks. OPENING STATEMENT OF SAXBY CHAMBLISS, VICE CHAIRMAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM GEORGIA Vice Chairman Chambliss. Well thanks, Madam Chair, and I join in welcoming Director Clapper, as well as all of our other witnesses today, and particularly Mr. Brennan, as his first testimony as the Director of CIA--Mr. Director, congratulations; and to Bob Mueller--I had a conversation with Bob when his last term was ending, and implored him to think about staying. I will expect to have that conversation again with you, Director Mueller; we may not be successful this time. But you have provided great leadership at a great agency, and all of America is safer because of the kind of leadership that you have provided. We'll have many more opportunities, I hope, to say thanks, but we don't want to miss any of those opportunities. I particularly appreciate all of you being here today to talk about the threats that face our nation. These threats come in all forms--terrorism, espionage, cyber, and good old fashioned counterintelligence--and from all corners of the globe. Today, the American people have the chance to hear first-hand from those on the front lines what these threats mean to the security of our nation. Let me just start out by noting that today's hearing follows a lively discussion over the past month about the potential for the domestic use of drones. While the administration has put many fears to rest over the last few days, this debate brought new attention to the difficulty Congress often faces in getting information from the executive branch. The Intelligence Community is obligated, under the National Security Act, to keep the congressional intelligence committees fully and currently informed of its intelligence activities, including covert action. We cannot do the oversight the American people expect of us if every request for information becomes a protracted battle. As a group, our witnesses represent the entire Intelligence Community, and each of you has made a commitment to this Committee to provide information when we request it. We understand there may be rare exceptions to this rule, but we are now operating in an environment in which the exception has become the rule, and this simply has to stop. Let me now turn to the threats facing our nation. We've heard it said over the past year that core al-Qa'ida has been decimated and is on the run. Its Pakistan-based leadership is crumbling under the pressure of U.S. and allied counterterrorism efforts. But new threats, posed by al-Qa'ida affiliates and other similar organizations, are emerging--and possibly expanding--in places like Yemen, North Africa, and Mali. The past six months alone have brought the terrorist attacks in Benghazi and Algeria that claimed innocent American lives. Clearly, these attacks show that radical and extreme ideologies are not going away anytime soon. Instead, these terrorist organizations are regrouping and gathering strength. When we entered Afghanistan in October 2001, our goal was to put the al-Qa'ida terrorist training camps and military installations of the Taliban regime out of business. Now, as we prepare to leave Afghanistan nearly twelve years later, the Taliban, the Haqqani Network, and similar groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan seem to have mostly survived years of counterinsurgency and counter-terrorism operations. This raises the inevitable question of whether these groups will be able to create a sanctuary, like we saw before 9/11, once the U.S. coalition withdraws in 2014. As we face new threats from al-Qa'ida affiliates, we are badly overdue for a long-term detention policy that allows us to fully and effectively interrogate terrorist detainees. Last week, Osama bin Laden's son-in-law was indicted in federal court in New York after being captured overseas. While Sulaiman Abu Ghaith is finally facing justice for his long affiliation with bin Laden and al-Qa'ida, I firmly believe this administration's refusal to place new detainees at Guantanamo Bay is hurting our ability to collect intelligence. It seems as though we now either just kill terrorists or give them Miranda warnings. Dead terrorists don't talk. And when we Mirandize the ones we do capture, after just 50 minutes, or 90 minutes, we aren't likely to get the timely intelligence we need. Three years ago, we had the same conversation, following the failed Christmas Day Bombing, and I'm disappointed that this scenario seems to be repeating itself. Whether Abu Ghaith is ultimately tried in federal court or a military commission is not the primary question; it is whether we maximize our opportunity to gather good intelligence up front. Waiting for a potential plea deal before getting access again, as we saw with the Christmas Day Bomber, is, I believe, simply the wrong approach. I'm very concerned that we have returned to the dangerous pre-9/11 reactive mindset, where international terrorists were treated as ordinary criminals. This is a mistake we should not repeat. The administration's handling of Abu Ghaith also seems to directly contradict the National Defense Authorization Act, which specifically called for individuals like him to be held in military custody. Now, I understand that the administration adopted procedures that effectively undermined the spirit of this military custody requirement. And what I believe is an abuse of the NDAA's waiver provision, the administration created broad, accepted categories under which they can continue to avoid placing terrorists in military custody. I would simply ask--if someone like Abu Ghaith will not be held in military custody for interrogation purposes, then who will be? Of course, terrorism is not our only threat. The possibility of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons, and North Korea's nuclear test, and other provocations, merit our close attention, as does the increasing conflict in Syria. It is critical that we ensure the Intelligence Community can give us a clear reading into these ``hot spots'' and to what may lie over the horizon. At the same time, cyber espionage and intrusions are growing every day, and if we are going to prevent the siphoning off of our intellectual property to hackers and nation-states alike, then Congress must work with the private sector in a truly cooperative way. We must pass voluntary information sharing legislation that completely protects companies from the threat of lawsuits. The government must put its own cyber house in order, and we must make sure that our criminal penalties are sufficient to punish and deter cyber intruders. Gentlemen, today is your opportunity to give the country a real glimpse of what it means to be on the front lines of the Intelligence Community. There is no doubt that today's slimming budgets, combined with increasing and diverse threats, clearly present a challenge to the entire Intelligence Community. Your task is not an easy one. But I am confident that the men and women of the Intelligence Community, who work so hard every day in defense of this nation, will rise to this challenge and not only get the job done, but, under your leadership, they will do it well. Madam Chair, I thank you and look forward to a discussion with our witnesses. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much for those comments. We will now proceed. Director Clapper, you have the floor, and it's my understanding you're going to make the comments on behalf of everyone? Director Clapper. Yes, Madam Chairman. Chairman Feinstein. And then we will be able to ask questions. The rounds will be five minutes because we have a classified hearing, and we will go according to seniority, alternating sides. Please proceed, Director Clapper. STATEMENT OF JAMES R. CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY Director Clapper. Chairman Feinstein, Vice Chairman Chambliss, and distinguished Members of the Committee, as you indicated, we're here to present the 2013 Worldwide Threat Assessment. You already introduced my colleagues, but I do want to speak very briefly about, sort of, the alpha and omega of tenure in the Intelligence Community. Bob Mueller, approaching now twelve years in office, is a very distinguished director of the FBI, and a tremendous colleague for me--in this job and in previous ones I've held. And of course, I could not be more delighted and more proud to have John Brennan confirmed and installed as Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. It's my view that John will go down as one of the distinguished directors of CIA. These remarks and our two Statements for the Record--one unclassified, and then a much more detailed classified one-- reflect the collective judgments of the extraordinary men and women of the United States Intelligence Community. And it's our privilege--those of us who are here and those who aren't--a privilege and honor to serve in these positions to lead them, and now, as I will discuss shortly, our solemn duty to try to protect them. As you know, Madam Chairman, I have serious reservations about conducting open hearings on the worldwide threat, especially the question and answer sessions. While I believe it's important to keep the American public informed about the threats that our nation faces, I believe that can be done through unclassified opening statements and statements for the record. As you also know, we're ready to answer any and all of your questions in closed session, but an open hearing on intelligence matters is something of a contradiction in terms. While our statements for the record and your opening statements can be reviewed in advance for classification issues, our answers to your questions cannot. And our attempts to avoid revealing classified information sometimes leads to misinterpretation, or accusations that we're being circumspect for improper reasons. It's a hazard we have encountered when publicly discussing sensitive details of national security matters. So, when we ask to discuss certain matters in the closed session, it's not to evade, but rather to protect our intelligence sources and methods and, if I might add, to be sensitive to the often delicate relations we have with our allies and partners. They, too, all carefully listen to and watch these hearings, as I have learned the hard way. The topic that you both alluded to--the topic that is foremost on our minds this year--is, of course, sequestration. You haven't seen much public discourse on the impact of these indiscriminate cuts on intelligence. We haven't been on the talk shows, and you don't read much about it in the printed media. So, let me now be blunt--for you, and for the American people: sequestration forces the Intelligence Community to reduce all intelligence activities and functions without regard to impact our mission. In my considered judgment as the nation's senior intelligence officer, sequestration jeopardizes our nation's safety and security, and this jeopardy will increase over time. The National Intelligence Program, or NIP, as it's called, which I manage, is spread across six cabinet departments and two independent agencies. Much of it is included in the DoD budget. For that portion of the NIP, the Congress directed that the National Intelligence Program use an even more onerous set of rules to carry out these cuts than that imposed on the Defense Department. This restrictive Program, Project, and Activity--or PPA structure, as it's known--compounds the damage because it restricts our ability to manage where to take deductions in a balanced and rational way. Accordingly, the sheer size of the budget cut--well over $4 billion, or about 7 percent of the NIP--will directly compel us to do less with less. I'll give you some examples--and I'll have to be circumspect here in an open, unclassified setting, but we're prepared to speak more specifically in a classified setting--of the impacts of sequestration. We'll reduce HUMINT, technical, and counterintelligence operations, resulting in fewer collection opportunities while increasing the risk of strategic surprise. This includes, for example, possibly furloughing thousands of FBI employees funded in the National Intelligence Program. Our cyber efforts will be impacted. This is an area where, as you all know, we need to keep ahead of rapid technology advances to maintain and increase access to adversaries as well as provide warning of a cyber attack against the U.S. Critical analysis and tools will be cut back. So, we'll reduce global coverage, and may risk missing the early signs of a threat. Our response to customers will suffer, as well. We'll let go over five thousand contractors--and that number may grow--who are an integral part of the Intelligence Community. And this is on top of the thousands of contractors we've let go in previous years. We'll delay major systems acquisitions, and we'll decommission older, but still productive, overhead reconnaissance capabilities, thus reducing coverage. Virtually all of the 39 major systems acquisitions across the Intelligence Community would be wounded. We'll have to re-negotiate contracts, and slip schedules to the right, which, in the long run, will cost us more. And we'll scale back cutting-edge research that helps us maintain a strategic advantage. Since we're already halfway through the fiscal year, the mandate of across-the-board cuts is equivalent to 13 percent, because we'll be forced to take them in just seven months. These condensed timelines magnify the impact these cuts will have on the IC. So, in response, our approach starts with the premise that mission comes first. Therefore, our two highest priorities are, one, to protect our most valuable resource--our civilian workforce--so we can focus on the threats we face; and two, to support overseas operations. Our civilian workforce works 24/7 around the world, and is crucial to performing that mission. It is our civilian professionals who will provide the resilience and ingenuity to help compensate for the other cuts we'll incur. I am resolutely committed to minimizing the number and lengths of furloughs that would be required, not only because of the direct impact on our mission, but because of the severe impact on the morale of the people who do it. I plan to follow Deputy Secretary of Defense Ash Carter's sterling example and have my pay reduced, as well, in solidarity with any IC employees that have to be furloughed. Now, let me emphasize here that we are not arguing against taking our share of the budget reductions. What I am saying is that we must manage this budget crisis and continue our vital missions. And, in so doing, we'll minimize the impact on our nation and on our employees. Therefore, I plan to submit a reprogramming action that mitigates some of the most egregious cuts to help us cut in a more rational, mission-focused manner. And in this, I'm asking for your support, and the other intelligence oversight committees, for expedited management and consideration. And Madam Chairman, I want to, on behalf of the entire Intelligence Community, thank you for your leadership and your care for the mission of the Intelligence Community and for introducing a bill that would give us that flexibility. Now, I must tell you that, unfortunately, I've seen this movie before. Twenty years ago, I served as Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency--the job that Lieutenant General Mike Flynn has now. We were then enjoying reaping the peace dividend occasioned by the end of the Cold War. We reduced the Intelligence Community by 23 percent. During the mid to late 1990s, we closed many CIA stations, reduced HUMINT collectors, cut analysts, allowed our overhead architecture to atrophy, and we neglected basic infrastructure needs, such as power, space, and cooling, and we let our facilities decay. And most damaging, most devastatingly, we badly distorted the workforce. All of that, of course, was reversed in the wake of 9/11. And thanks to the support of the Congress over the last decade, we rebuilt the Intelligence Community into the premier of such capability on the planet. And now, if we're not careful, we risk another damaging downward spiral. So I'm going to do all I can to prevent history from repeating that cycle. But, to be clear, the scope and magnitude of the cuts already under way will be long lasting. Unlike more directly- observable sequestration impacts, like shorter hours of public parks, or longer security lines at airports, the degradation to intelligence will be insidious. It will be gradual and almost invisible--unless and until, of course, we have an intelligence failure. With that preface as a backdrop, let me turn now to a brief wave-top review of global threat trends and challenges; although, Madam Chairman, you and the Vice Chair have, I think, done an admirable job of that already. I will say that in my almost fifty years of intelligence, I do not recall a period in which we've confronted a more diverse array of threats, crises, and challenges around the world, which you both described. To me, this makes sequestration even more incongruous. This year's threat assessment illustrates how dramatically the world and our threat environment are changing. Threats are growing more interconnected and viral. Events that at first seem local and irrelevant can quickly set off transnational disruptions that affect U.S. national interests. It's a world in which our definition of war now includes a soft version. We can add cyber and financial to the list of weapons being used against us. And such attacks can be deniable and non-attributable. So, when it comes to the distinct threat areas, our statement this year leads with cyber. And it's hard to overemphasize its significance. Increasingly, state and non-state actors are gaining and using cyber expertise. They apply cyber techniques and capabilities to achieve strategic objectives, by gathering sensitive information from public and private sector entities, controlling the content and flow of information, and challenging perceived adversaries of cyber space. These capabilities put all sectors of our country at risk-- from government and private networks to critical infrastructures. We see indications that some terrorist organizations are interested in developing offensive cyber capabilities, and that cyber criminals are using a growing black market to sell cyber tools that fall into the hands of both state and non-state actors. This year, we include natural resources as a factor affecting national security because shifts in human geography, climate, disease, and competition for natural resources have national security implications. Many countries that are extremely important to U.S. interests that sit in already- volatile areas of the world are living with extreme water and food stress that can destabilize governments. This includes Afghanistan and Pakistan in South Asia, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, and Libya in the Arab world, and many other nation- states across Africa and in our own hemisphere. Water challenges include not only problems with quality and quantity, but with flooding. Some countries will almost certainly exert leverage over their neighbors to preserve their own water interests, and water infrastructure can be considered a viable target for terrorists. In the United States, Germany, and Japan, less than 15 percent of household expenditures are for food. In India and China, that figure climbs to more than 20 percent. In Egypt, Vietnam, and Nigeria, it rises to greater than 35 percent. And in Algeria, Pakistan, and Azerbaijan, more than 45 percent of household expenses are just for food. Terrorists, militants, and international crime groups are certain to use declining local food security to gain legitimacy and undermine government authority. Intentional introduction of a livestock or plant disease could be a greater threat to the United States and the global food system than a direct attack on food supplies intended to kill humans. So there will most assuredly be security concerns with respect to health and pandemics, energy, and climate change. Environmental stressors are not just humanitarian issues; they legitimately threaten regional stability. On the issue of terrorism, the threat from core al-Qa'ida and the potential for a massive coordinated attack on the United States is diminished, but the global jihadist movement is a more diversified, decentralized, and persistent threat. Lone wolves, domestic extremists, and jihadist-inspired groups remain determined to attack Western interests, as they have done most recently in Libya and Algeria. The turmoil in the Arab world has brought a spike in threats to U.S. interests. The rise of new governments in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, and Libya, along with ongoing unrest in Syria and Mali, provide openings for opportunistic individuals and groups. In these and other regions of the world, extremists can take advantage of diminished counterterrorism capabilities, porous borders, and internal stressors; most especially, a high proportion of unemployed young males. Development and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction is another major threat to U.S. interests. North Korea has already demonstrated capabilities that threaten the United States and the security environment in East Asia. It announced last month that it concluded its third nuclear test, and last April, it displayed what appears to be a road- mobile intercontinental ballistic missile. We believe North Korea has already taken initial steps towards fielding this system, although it remains untested. It also used its Taepdong-2 launch vehicle to put a satellite in orbit in December, thus demonstrating its long-range missile technology. These developments have been accompanied with extremely aggressive public rhetoric towards the United States and the Republic of Korea. Iran continues to develop technical expertise in a number of areas, including uranium enrichment, nuclear reactors, and ballistic missiles, from which it could draw it if decided to build missile-deliverable nuclear weapons. These technical advancements strengthen our assessment that Tehran has the scientific, technical, and industrial capacity to produce nuclear weapons. This makes the central issue its political will to do so. Such a decision will reside with the supreme leader, and at this point, we don't know if he'll eventually decide to build nuclear weapons. The United States and our allies are tracking Syria's munitions stockpiles, particularly its chemical and biological warfare agents, which are all part of a large, complex, and geographically dispersed program. Its advanced chemical weapons program has the potential to inflict mass casualties. This adds to our concern that the increasingly beleaguered regime, having found its escalation of violence through conventional means inadequate, might be preparing to use chemical weapons against the Syrian people. And besides the regime's use, non-governmental groups or individuals in Syria could gain access to such materials. Let me now briefly address regional threats around the world. Some nations in the Middle East and North Africa are making progress toward Democratic rule, but most are experiencing levels of violence and political backsliding. Islamic actors have been the chief beneficiaries of the political openings, and extremist parties in Egypt, Tunisia, and Morocco will probably solidify their influence this year. After almost two years of conflict in Syria, the erosion of the regime's capabilities is accelerating. We see this in its territorial losses, military manpower, and logistic shortages. The regime's aggressive violence and the deteriorating security conditions have led to increased civilian casualties. This sort of violence too often accompanies major political upheaval, being perpetuated by elites trying to assert or retain control. This violence and economic dislocation has led to more than two million Syrians being displaced, both internally and externally. In Iran, leaders are exploiting the unrest in the Arab world to try to spread influence abroad and undermine the United States and our allies. However, Tehran faces a worsening financial outlook since sanctions were implemented in 2012 on its oil exports and central bank. Iran continues to be a destabilizing force in the region, providing weapons and training to Syrian forces, and standing up a militia force there to fight the Syrian opposition. Iran's efforts to secure regional dominance, however, achieve limited results, and the fall of the Assad regime in Syria would be a major strategic loss for Tehran. In Iraq, sectarian tensions are rising between the majority Shi'a and minority Sunni. Last year, we saw a rise in vehicle and suicide bombings by al-Qa'ida in Iraq. However, AQI almost certainly lacks the strength to overwhelm Iraqi security forces, and Iraq is producing and exporting oil at its highest levels in two decades. Moving to South Asia, the Taliban-led insurgency has diminished in some areas of Afghanistan, but remains resilient and capable of challenging U.S. and international goals. The coalition drawdown will have an impact on Afghanistan's economy, which is likely to decline after 2014. In Pakistan, the government made no concerted effort to institute much-needed policy and tax reforms, and the country faces extremely challenging prospects for sustainable economic growth. On a more positive note, this past year, the Pakistani armed forces continued their operations in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, or FATA, which have been safe havens for al-Qa'ida and the Taliban. Pakistan also saw fewer domestic attacks from the militant group of TTP. Across Africa, violence, corruption, and extremism will threaten U.S. interests this year. We've seen strides in development in some areas--Ghana here, is noteworthy. And international efforts have combined with domestic support to bring more stability to Somalia. But we still see unresolved conflict between Sudan and South Sudan, extremist attacks in Nigeria, the collapse of governance in Northern Mali, and persistent conflict in Central Africa, especially in the great lakes region. China is supplementing its more advanced military capabilities by bolstering maritime law enforcement to support its claims in the South and East China Seas. It continues its military buildup and its aggressive information-stealing campaigns. Russia will continue to resist putting more international pressure on Syria or Iran, and will continue to display its great sensitivity to missile defense. Closer to home, despite positive trends toward democracy and economic development, Latin America and the Caribbean contend with weak institutions, slow recovery from devastating natural disasters, and drug-related violence and trafficking, which, of course, is a major threat to the United States. On another aspect of transnational organized crime, roughly 20 million human beings are being trafficked around the world, an issue on which we've increased our efforts to support law enforcement. Virtually every country on the face of the Earth is a source, a transit point, or a destination for human trafficking, and some fall in more than one category. In sum, given the magnitude and complexity of our global responsibilities, our strong, persistent, and reliable intelligence capabilities have never been more important or urgent, and I have trouble reconciling this imperative with sequestration. With that, I thank you for your attention, and we are ready to address your questions. [The Statement for the Record on the Worldwide Threat Assessment of the U.S. Intelligence Community, prepared by Director Clapper, follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.001 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.002 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.003 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.004 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.005 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.006 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.007 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.008 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.009 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.010 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.011 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.012 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.013 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.014 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.015 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.016 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.017 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.018 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.019 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.020 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.021 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.022 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.023 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.024 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.025 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.026 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.027 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.028 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.029 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.030 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.031 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.032 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.033 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 82721.034 Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much, Director Clapper, and thank you for the written comments, as well--I think they're excellent. Director Mueller, in a quick question, I mentioned the 100 terrorist-related arrests in the United States since January of 2009, and the number of convictions since 2011 at over 400. Let me ask you this question: Has the FBI been impeded in its ability to conduct investigations or collect intelligence from terrorist suspects because of the need to read Miranda rights or present a suspect to a court? Director Mueller. It's hard to respond specifically, because there may be an occasion where it was an issue in an investigation, but for the most part, the answer is no. If you talk to agents who do this for a living, I think they would tell you that it is their ability to elicit information by developing rapport with individuals that is a prime mover, in terms of providing the appropriate intelligence. And let me, if I could, put in context what I think is the underselling, or the underestimating, the ability of the criminal justice system to produce intelligence. I, for one, understand that if there is a terrorist attack, it is going to be on us. I, for one, am very concerned about maximizing the access to intelligence. One of the things I do think is underestimated is the ability of the criminal justice system to do just that. There has not been--well, there are very, very few cases, of the numbers that you mentioned, where we have not ultimately obtained the cooperation of the individual, albeit going through--as the Senator points out--going through the criminal justice system. But we have a number of cases where we have convicted persons, and because of our plea bargaining in our system, we have gotten the cooperation we need. And that cooperation has led to our testifying in cases in the UK and elsewhere because we had intelligence, from our system, that they did not have. If you look at three of the cases that were prominent in terms of providing intelligence--you start with David Headley, out of Chicago, who opened the door to us in terms of the Mumbai attacks; if you look at Najibullah Zazi in the plot to bomb the New York City subway, that case couldn't have proceeded without his full cooperation; and then another individual by the name of Bryant Neal Vinas. In every case, we try to look at the best option. And I'm not saying that--in certain cases, the military tribunal option is not the best option to go. But I do think that the ability of the criminal justice system to produce intelligence is often overlooked. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much. For either Director Clapper or Mr. Brennan: In light of recent warnings by North Korea, including the renunciation of the ceasefire with South Korea after six decades, does the IC assess that they could actually take provocative action that could lead to a renewal of active hostilities with the South? Director Clapper. Let me start, and then John can jump in. Absolutely. I, personally, having followed Korea ever since I served there in the mid 1980s as the Director of Intelligence for U.S. Forces Korea, am very concerned about the actions of the new young leader--very belligerent--and the rhetoric that has been emanating from the North Korean regime. The rhetoric, while it is propaganda-laced, is also an indicator of their attitude, and perhaps their intent. So, for my part, I am very concerned about what they might do, and they certainly, if they so choose, could initiate a provocative action against the South. Chairman Feinstein. Director Brennan, would you like to add to that? Director Brennan. I would agree with Director Clapper. This is a very dynamic time right now, with the new leader. I think it also just underscores the importance of making sure that our analytic capabilities, as well as our collection capabilities, are as strong as possible, because what we're talking about are developments that have strategic importance and potential consequence for U.S. interests, not just in northeast Asia, but also globally. So I think this is one of the areas that we, as the Intelligence Community, and certainly the CIA, need to pay particularly close attention to. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you. Mr. Vice Chairman. Vice Chairman Chambliss. Thanks, Madam Chair. Director Clapper, let me just address for one second your comments relative to sequestration, and just initially say that we are spending too much money in Washington. I don't think there's any disagreement about that. And actually, the reduction in $1.2 billion in spending is not a bad idea. But your reference to the way in which we're doing it is exactly right. It's a foolish way to reduce spending--to tell every aspect of the federal government, ``You don't have a choice. You're mandated to reduce spending across the board by whatever the dollar amount is in your specific agency, or your office.'' Let me just give you the assurance, and everybody here at the table, the assurance that the Chairman, myself, and every Member of this Committee is committed to ensuring that the Intelligence Community does not suffer from the lack of resources. One thing the Constitution is very clear about is that it is the role of Congress to provide for the national security of Americans. And we intend to honor our obligation. You, and the men and women that work under you, are very professional, and you're doing your job. You're doing exactly what we ask you to do. So we want you to know that we're committing to do everything within our power to ensure that the resources are there to allow you to continue to do what you're asked to do every single day. Director Clapper. Senator Chambliss, first, I very much appreciate that. I think, on behalf of the men and women in the entire Intelligence Community, now, more than ever, we are dependent on, particularly, our two oversight committees--this one and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence-- to be our stewards and our advocates. That said, let me stress that I am not, and none of us are, suggesting that we won't take our fair share of the cuts. Vice Chairman Chambliss. Sure. Director Clapper. All we're asking for is the latitude on how to take them, to minimize the damage. Vice Chairman Chambliss. And I know you mean it exactly that way, and we're going to have your back on this as we go through this. It's not going to be easy, but we're going to work hard to do it right. Senator Mikulski. Mr. Vice Chairman, a point of personal privilege--I have to go to the Floor on the continuing resolution. May I respond to your comments, the Chair and General Clapper, in terms of the state of play? Vice Chairman Chambliss. Sure. Senator Mikulski. We have a continuing resolution on the Floor. This does not deal with the sequester--that's being negotiated by the higher powers, whether it's a charm offensive or whether it's an offensive. My job, along with Senator Shelby's, is to move the continuing resolution. We are working steadily, on a bipartisan basis, to do that. But the money is spartan, and it is frugal. And in terms of the flexibility that you've just asked for, that the Chair has spoken pretty firmly with me about, along with other Members, we will not have that in our bill. We were told that was a poison pill. And I'm not just saying that to you, Mr. Clapper, but to our colleagues. And I would like that as we go through the rest of the day, we could talk to see if we could have an amendment that would accomplish that. But we were told, by both the House and by others, that this was a poison pill. I'd like to do everything I can to not only get you the money, but the administrative framework for you to properly do the money. So if we could work together, if I could have your help, but I can't deal--first of all, I can say nothing but positive things about Senator Shelby; we've worked very well, we've co- sponsored our bill. But if we can do what you want us to do, we need help. And if we could do that, we would. We do want to work with you. We so admire you. And I'm going to my other duty station. Director Clapper. Senator Mikulski, if I may just--again, in the complex arcana of PPAs, all we're asking for is to be treated identically as the Department of Defense. And the same PPA arrangement as the larger Department gets, so would we. But we have been singled out for very small exacting PPAs, which greatly restricts the latitude to move money around to mitigate the damage. Chairman Feinstein. And Director, as the Senator knows, the only thing that this amendment would do that's being introduced today--and I will give this to the Chairman--is essentially to give you that authority. You would be treated as defense units are treated. Senator Mikulski. Madam Chair, I welcome you giving me this amendment. I'd also like you to give it to Senators Reid and McConnell, Boehner, and the House Democratic leadership, as well. Chairman Feinstein. Will do. Senator Mikulski. You know, again, I always hoped that a higher power would be on my side. The Pope, they meet for--we will have a new Pope, and I'd like you to have new flexibility. Okay? Chairman Feinstein. Okay. Senator Mikulski. But it's going to take higher power, and this is what you need to show them. Chairman Feinstein. We will--today. Senator Mikulski. Thank you. Because it's not Shelby- Mikulski here. Chairman Feinstein. Okay. Thank you very much. Shall we continue? Vice Chairman Chambliss. Let me direct this to both Director Clapper and Director Mueller: Obviously, we're still in the stage of remorse, relative to the death of four brave Americans in Benghazi. The American people have demanded answers, and frankly, we have not been able to provide them the types of answers that they have asked to this point because we haven't been given all of the answers. I realize we're in an open hearing, but what I would like to ask Director Clapper and Director Mueller is to tell the American people--number one, Director Clapper, what are our lessons learned here, as we move forward? We know we have a lot of other vulnerable spots around the world. Director Mueller, what can you, in an open hearing, tell us about the progress towards bringing these murderers to justice? Director Clapper. Well, first of all, Senator Chambliss, I think one lesson in this is a greater emphasis on the Intelligence Community on force protection for our diplomat facilities. And I can, in a closed context, go into specifically what I mean by that. And that clearly was, I think, a shortfall for us, having a better appreciation of the tactical situation at a diplomatic facility. I guess the other lesson learned is--don't do talking points, unclassified talking points. That's the other lesson I learned. Director Mueller. With regard to the investigation, Senator, a couple of points: Since this occurred, we've had teams on the ground in Tripoli, and elsewhere around the world, conducting the investigation. With regard to the cooperation of the Libyan authorities, there is a willingness exhibited by their actions to cooperate. However, it is exceptionally difficult, particularly in eastern Libya, in Benghazi. And that has been a hurdle that we have not seen elsewhere where we've had similar incidents. Nonetheless, we have received the cooperation from the Libyan authorities. I traveled there in January to continue to coordinate with them. And I will say that the investigation has not been stymied. There are hurdles that we've had to overcome, but it's ongoing, and I believe it will only prove to be fruitful. Vice Chairman Chambliss. Thanks very much, gentlemen. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much, Mr. Vice Chairman. I'll give the next four and see what happens in terms of arrival: Rockefeller, Burr, Wyden, and Udall. Senator Rockefeller. Senator Rockefeller. Thank you, Madam Chair. I cannot help, Director Clapper and John Brennan, but bring up the subject that Saxby did in his opening comments, because to me talk was just given about a good relationship between the Intelligence Community and Congress. What happened over the last couple of weeks is a threat; is a threat to trust--between us and you, us towards you, you towards us. And I'm going to ask for comments just from the director, and from Director Brennan. What basically happened was we were given certain things that we requested, primarily because you, sir, were up for confirmation. And had we not been given some of those things which we requested, the confirmation would not have had the votes, and it wouldn't have mattered who had been put up. It's a terrible situation. And I think you're absolutely superb, absolutely superb. I've been through every--for the last almost thirty years, I've been through every CIA director, and I think you're the best. And I mean that. But the irony was that we were given certain things to look at, and then we were told, as we did that, when we finally got our staff to be allowed to participate--this goes all the way back to 2001. Then ``minders''--as I sat with my intelligence expert in a room to read these opinions, there was a Department of Justice ``minder'' who was sent in to watch us. I was not aware that that person was going to have to be there. That was an insult to me, and I kicked the person out. She said, ``My orders are I have to be here.'' And then I said something else--I told her to leave. We have to find a way for us to trust each other. And I don't think that we've--maybe, mutually--but in any event, we haven't figured it out. Things, after the confirmation, went directly back to the way they were from 2001/2002 to 2007. We had a classified briefing, and all of our staff was kicked out. All of our staff was kicked out, with one exception--two exceptions. I was outraged. And you can talk about worldwide threats, but unless we have our common purpose together, like it was after 9/11, where everybody was on the same team. Everybody was fighting for the same thing. Everybody was working with everybody else. That was the deal. We were eager to do it. The first bill that passed after 9/11 was allowing the FBI and the CIA to talk to each other. Maybe we need another bill allowing the Intelligence Community to talk to us openly--more openly than they have. It's a real problem. John Brennan, you have--I don't think this is your instinct--through your four-hour grilling, and I thought you were superb. And on the questions that you had to deflect just a bit, I thought you should have deflected, and I respected that. But we cannot be told that documents that could be in our purview to look at, which, in fact, have nothing in them that would make our review of them a threat to anybody at all, that we can't have them, or that our staff cannot be in attendance. What would happen if we had you here, and all the folks behind you had to stay out of the room--all of you? That's the comparable situation. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not an intelligence analyst or specialist. I need advice. I need counsel. I need staff. I have a superb one, as we all do. Is there a way, in your mind, that we can somehow come to an understanding that makes this program, or problem, work the way it should, to work it out the way it should, so that we're comfortable with each other; that you protect yourself when you absolutely have to, but you don't protect yourself beyond where you absolutely have to, so that we can trust each other, and really concentrate on worldwide threats, sir? Director Clapper. Senator Rockefeller, let me start. And then I know John has views on this, having experienced the process that I won't ever go through again--confirmation; I've done it three times, and that's more than anybody should stand. And what I'll say probably won't be entirely satisfactory to you. I think all of us--and I think I speak for all my colleagues in the Intelligence Community who are here and those who aren't--that trust is fundamental to the relationship between the Intelligence Community and our oversight committees. The oversight committees have a unique responsibility, unlike others, because so much of what we do is classified, it's secret. So we recognize the doubly-important responsibility that you have on behalf of the American public, since not everything we do can be revealed. As a general rule, that which is under our control, and activities that we manage and oversee, I think our record has been pretty good, pretty consistent in sharing that with you, because, again, we depend so heavily on you for your support. When there are documents that are elsewhere in the executive branch--OLC opinions, just to name one example--or when we are attempting to abide by a longstanding practice of executive privilege, which has been practiced by both Republican and Democratic administrations, I think that's where we begin to have problems. But I will tell you, for that which is fully under our control and for which we manage, I think I can pledge to you that we will endeavor to earn your trust. John. Director Brennan. Senator, like most hostages, I was excluded from the ransom negotiations during my confirmation process. But one of the things that I have committed to myself is to familiarize myself intimately with the rules and procedures that govern the interaction with this Committee and other oversight committees for programs and activities that fall under my purview. And what I want to be able to do is to speak with the Chairman and the Vice Chairman about this, because I don't know what those procedures have been heretofore. I'll pick up on Jim's point--Director Clapper's point--about some things that are beyond the purview of the Intelligence Community or the CIA to make some decisions on. But what I really want to do is to have as much dialogue as possible with you so that that trust can be built up, so that we are able to address these issues earlier. As I think the Vice Chairman was pointing out, on some of the matters related to--like the Benghazi talking points and other things, what we need to do is address it as early on as possible, because, like an angle, the lines of an angle get further apart the further out they go. And I really do believe that what we can do is, up front, have a clear understanding of what your interests are, what your requirements are, and then I think what we need to do is to do what we can in order to give you what you need to fulfill your statutory responsibilities of oversight. Senator Rockefeller. Either I or others, in the second round, will continue this. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you, Senator Rockefeller. I just want to add one quick thing right here. The OLC opinions, in particular, particularly with our obligation, which is robust oversight, you cannot know whether something is carried out by the executive branch within the law unless you see those opinions, which phrase the law. And I think that's the problem--it's very difficult not to look at them, and to make judgments without understanding. I'll just leave you with that. Senator Coats. Senator Coats. Madam Chairman, thank you. Director Clapper, I note that of all the topics that you chose to talk about, you put cyber right at the very top. And I think I understand why--you state that we are undergoing a major transformation intertwined with digital technologies and the internet that has profound implications for U.S. economic and national security. I was very disappointed that we were not able to put a legislative package together in the last Congress--it failed in the waning days of the Congress. The President followed up with an Executive Order. I know, Director Brennan, you were part of putting that Executive Order together. It's limited in terms of what it can do, so I'm hoping we can work together to fashion a proper legislative proposal that will enhance our ability to better understand, and better deal with, this ever-growing critical threat to our economy and to our national security. In that regard, I noted that the Executive Order from the President indicated a strong willingness to share information from the government with private industry. But the hang-up here is that the reverse--information from private industry shared with the government--hit some road blocks. And we need some incentives to provide private industry to feel secure, in terms of their sharing of propriety information, and the impact on its competitiveness with others, and so forth. Providing such things as liability, coverage, and so forth, and assuring that the standards that are set are compatible with industry standards, I think, are critical issues there. So I think I'm making a statement in that regard that hopefully we can address that, and keep that at the level of priority where you have put it. I know the majority leader has said we need to take that up; unfortunately, we're all caught up in debate in issues relative to the fiscal situation--sequester, as you've talked about. But this is a serious subject, and we need to get on it sooner rather than later. I want to just briefly flip to a question on Iran and ask maybe both you, and Director Brennan, just to--if you have anything to say about the cyber, that's fine, but also, just to put this into one question: We have ever-ratcheting sanctions against Iran, in terms of its pursuit of nuclear weapon capability, development: a) Have you seen any glimpse of possible change in the decision-making and will of the leadership, which will decide whether or not they will comply in any sense at all with the requests being made by the global community relative to their pursuit? And, b) Are there concerns, and maybe you want to save this for the closed session, but are there concerns relative to the cooperation agreement signed between North Korea and Iran relative to ballistic missile technology and other aspects that might modify the timetable in which you assess Iran's ability to get this capability? Director Clapper. Let me just start on the first part of your question. The second one--the potential relationship between North Korea and Iran--might be better addressed in the closed session. Clearly, the sanctions have had profound impact on Iran's economy--by any measure, whether it's inflation, unemployment, the availability of commodities, et cetera--and that situation is getting worse. At the same time, at least publicly, overtly, that has not prompted a change in the Iranian leadership, specifically the supreme leader's approach. We can go into perhaps a more detailed discussion in a closed setting about some indications that I think would be of interest to you. And I probably ought to let it go at that. Senator Coats. Fair enough. Director Brennan. Director Brennan. Senator, the only thing I would add is that on your first point related to cyber, the seriousness and the diversity of the threats that this country faces in the cyber domain are increasing on a daily basis. And from my perspective, I think this is one of the real significant national security challenges we face. And the threat is going to continue, and it's going to grow. What we need to do, as a country, is reduce the vulnerabilities and take the mitigation steps. So, again, from a national security perspective, I very much hope that the Congress will move forward with legislation, and the issues that you raise, on terms of information sharing and liability, are the key ones. And hopefully, that legislation will get through. Director Clapper. If I could tag onto what John just said, I think your brief discussion really highlighted the, sort of, what I call `òrganizing principles,'' those tenets that would have to be covered. And I think the standards that need to be applied would apply both to the government and the private sector. And the other thing I would want to mention is the due consideration for civil liberties and privacy in whatever legislation that eventually is enacted. Senator Coats. I assume both of you would acknowledge that time is of the essence here? Director Clapper. Yes, sir. Senator Coats. The sooner we get this done, the better. Thank you, Madam Chair. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much, Senator. Senator Udall. Excuse me--Senator Wyden. Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Director Brennan, first of all--congratulations. I appreciated the chance to talk about a number of issues with you previously, and I'm going to be asking you some additional questions about drones and targeted killings in the days ahead, but for today, my congratulations. Director Clapper, I want to ask you what I asked you about a year ago, and that was the matter of surveillance-- particularly, what the rules are that an intelligence agency would have to follow in order to electronically track the movements and locations of an American inside the United States. And I asked you about this a year ago, and you said that your lawyers were studying this, and I hope that since a year has passed, we can get some answers to these questions. So first, let me ask the question: If an intelligence agency wants to electronically track the movements and whereabouts of an American inside the United States, how much evidence do they need? Director Clapper. Well, first of all, let me just say, sir, that particularly in the case of NSA and CIA, there are strictures against tracking American citizens in the United States for foreign intelligence purposes. And that's what those agencies are set up to do. I think, though, when--I might ask Director Mueller to speak to this because what you're referring to, I think, devolves into the law enforcement/criminal area, so---- Senator Wyden. Let me--and I do want to hear from Director Mueller, but I'm trying to get some general principles out with respect to intelligence. And you've cited, certainly, some areas that are relevant, but what I'm really trying to do is get an unclassified answer to a question about what the law authorizes. Director Clapper. The law, of course, as you know, is embedded in the Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act, the amendment to which was recently extended for five years, and it places very strict strictures on the Intelligence Community's tracking of U.S. persons where there is a terrorism nexus. And that is overseen, very strictly, by both the FISA Court as well as within the executive branch, both by my office and the attorney general. So there are very strict rules about that, as you know, as we've discussed. Senator Wyden. But, as you know, there are some fundamental questions about the balance between security and liberty that transcend just the FISA question. So, what I would like to do is see if we can get a direct answer to the question about when the Intel Community needs to get a warrant, for example, when a lesser amount of evidence would do; and second, the circumstances when no specific evidence is needed at all. And the FISA law does not specify whether a warrant is required, so that's the reason that I'm asking the question. I asked it a year ago---- Director Clapper. I'd like to ask Director Mueller to help me with that question. Senator Wyden. And Mr. Director, I'm anxious to hear from Director Mueller, who I greatly respect, but I also need to hear from you with respect to the Intelligence Community. That's why I asked it a year ago, and---- Director Clapper. As I said, Senator Wyden, in the case of CIA and NSA, who are engaged in foreign intelligence collection, that's a practice that they do not engage in. Senator Wyden. Director Mueller. Director Mueller. Well, Senator, let me start by saying that there's no real distinction in what we do between the criminal and the national security--if we require it in the criminal side, we require it in national security. We treat them the same; there is no distinction between our intelligence cases in terms of undertaking the activity you suggest, and our criminal cases. That being said, in the wake of the Jones decision, which I'm sure you're familiar with--that has put some things in an area where we're waiting to see where the courts go. But obviously, as I said, if you were going to trespass to install a device, then that requires a warrant, and the standard on that warrant is still up in the air. And consequently, to give you a more precise answer to a particular question on a particular monitoring, I would have to be more factually based and then apply the law to that particular set of facts. Senator Wyden. Director Mueller, you have identified the exact reason why I'm trying to get an answer from Director Clapper, because there's no question we are going to watch what the courts do in the days ahead. The question is what will be the rights of Americans while that is still being fleshed out? And the fact is FISA does not specify whether a warrant is required. I know I'm out of time for this round, but I just want you to know, Director Clapper, respectfully, I will be asking this question of you--just like we did with respect to the legal documents for targeted killings, which we finally got after seven requests over a two-year period--until we get an answer, because I think Americans are entitled to a direct answer to that question. Thank you, Madam Chair. Chairman Feinstein. Would you like Director Mueller to respond? I think it would be helpful. Senator Wyden. Madam Chair, I think the director did, and he gave a very thoughtful answer, which is that the courts are still wrestling with the various interpretations of it. I think that is a correct answer by Director Mueller, but we still have the question remaining--what are the rights of Americans, as of today, while the courts are wrestling with this? And that is the matter we have not gotten an answer to. And I will follow it up again on my second round. Thank you, Madam Chair. Chairman Feinstein. Well, would you like to respond to that? I'll give you the opportunity. Director Mueller. The only thing I would add, Senator, is that with the law--disarray is probably too strong, but not having been totally identified, we take the most conservative approach---- Chairman Feinstein. Fair enough. Director Mueller [continuing]. To ensure that the evidence that is captured will pass scrutiny, regardless of how the court may come down. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much. Next is Senator Rubio. Senator Rubio. Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess we can start with you, General Clapper, but then everyone can weigh in if they have an opinion. I want to talk about Egypt for a moment. First of all, I want to have a clear understanding about their security apparatus, and in particular, their military, that, for a long time, has been seen as a professional organization, which was committed to upholding its international obligations and with which we had a good working relationship. What is the status of that relationship now? How heavily influenced have they become with recent political changes--in particular, with the election of President Morsi, and the coming to power of the Muslim Brotherhood? Has that changed the nature, or is it changing the nature, of those organizations? Director Clapper. Well, I think the military, as an institution in Egypt, has attempted to sustain its status and its stature as a professional military organization, and not, wherever it can be avoided, be drawn into the internal political upheavals that are going on in Egypt. Senator Rubio. In terms of the upheaval that they're facing, what, in your judgment, or in the judgment of any of the panelists, are the most significant security risks that they face? And I'll tell you the context of how I'm asking this question: We have recently seen sales of jet planes or--you know, these other existing contracts, and tanks, and so forth-- but it strikes me that the real security concerns increasingly should be towards security in the Sinai, upholding their peace treaty with their neighbors, providing for improved law enforcement in the streets there, where we've seen a rise in criminality. Can anyone comment on what the real security risks are? Again, it strikes me that Egypt is not at risk of being invaded by some foreign army anytime soon. So, shouldn't the weapons systems they're acquiring and so forth kind of reflect their real security needs? Director Clapper. Well, that's kind of up to---- Senator Rubio. I know that's a policy decision. Director Clapper. That's their policy decision. But I think you've highlighted, though, what the challenges are in Egypt, particularly with respect to security of the Sinai, which I believe they recognize they have a challenge there, and I think their intent is to--they may attempt to modify it--but I think, by and large, they wish to support the peace treaty. To me, the fundamental challenges that face Egypt have to do with its economy. And it's kind of a spiral--one of the impacts on their economy has been a decline in tourism, and that's related to the security situation. I think they recognize that. So, they clearly--I mean, they know they have internal challenges that they have to deal with. Senator Rubio. So their real security challenges are internal; in essence, street crime, which--my understanding is it's gotten pretty dangerous, particularly in Cairo, but in some of the other tourist areas. And also, there are security obligations vis-a-vis the peace treaty, and Sinai, and so forth. I think that the other question is broader, and again, any input from anyone is welcome on this, and that's the general direction that they are headed governmentally. And obviously, you know, there was an election, and there are questions about reforms to the constitution in Egypt. But where is, in your judgment, Egypt headed? In essence, where is the Muslim Brotherhood or President Morsi, to the extent he's heavily influenced by them, headed in the long term? Is it a real commitment to a democratic transition? Is it a real commitment toward a more Islamist type state? Or is it still in flux, and they're kind of trying to figure out how they can grow their economy and at the same time bring about these changes that the Muslim Brotherhood base of President Morsi is asking for? Director Clapper. I think the latter, the third condition-- it's still in flux. I think the leadership of Egypt, when they're in charge, is influenced heavily by pragmatic aspects and challenges, like the state of the economy, and security in the streets. However, at the same time, I think their ideology is clearly influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood. That's evident in some of the constitutional provisions, particularly having to do with the rights of women. Senator Rubio. And in that vein, U.S. policy, particularly U.S. aid policy towards Egypt, would probably weigh heavily on the pragmatic side of the equation for these leaders--in particular, their ability to receive the financing they need to stabilize their economy, and also to provide the gear they need to provide the security so people feel safe in Egypt again. Director Clapper. Yes, sir, but not at any price. I think they're very--understandably--very sensitive about their sovereignty and the extent to which we or anyone else can dictate to them what their behavior is. And, of course, that's not just the United States; it's the International Monetary Fund, and others, that ascribe conditions for financial aid. And that's an issue for the Egyptian policy apparatus to decide. Senator Rubio. All right. Thank you. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much, Senator Rubio. Senator Udall. Senator Udall. Thank you, Madam Chair. Director Clapper, I want to also associate myself with Senator Feinstein's remarks on the threat assessment documents; very readable, very helpful. I'm not sure you'd read it if you wanted a good night's sleep, but thank you for the work your team has done. Let me turn to the 6,000-page report that this Committee produced on the CIA's detention and interrogation program. I stated at Director Brennan's confirmation hearing that I was very concerned that inaccurate information on the management, operation, and effectiveness of the CIA's detention and interrogation program was provided by the CIA to the White House, the DOJ, Congress, and the public. As you know, Director Brennan expressed shock at the report's contents. And I understand that you had a similar personal reaction to the report; is that accurate? Were you also taken aback by the report's contents? Director Clapper. Yes, I was taken aback, by its length and breadth and all that, but I also think that I would counsel hearing from the Agency and its response to the RDI. I might ask John to comment on that. Senator Udall. Yeah, well, if I might, General, I'm going to do that. I want to get the director to comment, as well. But let me turn to Director Mueller. In an interview in Vanity Fair, Director, in December 2008, you were asked about terrorist attacks and whether they were disrupted thanks to intelligence obtained through the use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques. And you responded, without elaborating, `Ì don't believe that's been the case.'' And then months later, in April 2009, your spokesperson, John Miller, confirmed that your quote in the Vanity Fair article was accurate. Director, have you seen any information since April 2009 to change your views on this topic? Director Mueller. What I was trying to express is that I was really not in a position to see, because I was not aware of either the practices or the facts. Senator Udall. Thank you for that. And I do want to follow up with you later in that regard, as well. I would like to turn now to Director Brennan. ``Director Brennan''--it's nice to be able to say that. Congratulations on your confirmation. I appreciate your comment on being the hostage, and the hostage not being involved in the negotiations. I really look forward to working with you in your new role. As you remember, in the confirmation hearing, we discussed the Committee's study and the importance of putting reforms in place to prevent past mistakes from happening again. And I also pushed for declassification of the Committee's report. At that hearing, I pointed out that misinformation about the CIA's detention and interrogation program is, quote, ``regularly and publicly repeated today by former CIA officials, either knowingly or unknowingly.'' And then last week, before you were even on the job for your first day, a newspaper story was published quoting a senior intelligence official who claimed that, quote, ``The CIA is objecting to a majority of the 6,000-page report,'' which, I should note, has 35,000 footnotes directly sourced to CIA documents. And this newspaper article included numerous inaccurate statements about the Committee's report, including that it has 20 recommendations, which it does not. While it appears that the unnamed intelligence officials quoted in the paper were unfamiliar with the Committee's report, I'm concerned that, despite the Chairman going out of her way to make sure that only the specifically-named individuals at the CIA have access to the report, CIA personnel are leaking what may or may not be the CIA's official response to the report. And it seems that unnamed CIA officials are putting you in a particularly awkward position by making public their disagreement with the report's conclusions, even before you have a chance to weigh in as the new CIA director. So, I have three questions concerning the leak, and I want to run through them and then give you time to respond: One, do you believe that this is a leak of the CIA's views, despite the fact that these officials seem unfamiliar with the report? Two, do you anticipate looking into the leak? And three, as far as I'm aware, there's no new deadline for the CIA to provide comments on the Committee's report to this Committee. In my view, it's in no one's interest to delay the process. Can you give the Committee a sense as to when we can expect the CIA's comments? Director Brennan. Thank you, Senator. First of all, I'm not going to speculate on who might have been responsible for the information that appeared in the newspaper. I know that people are looking into that right now to see whether or not there was any disclosure of classified information, but there is a real interest on the part of CIA to be as responsive as possible to this Committee and on that report. And I've had a number of discussions with Deputy Director Michael Morell and other Members of the leadership team, and the response and comments on that report will be coming back to this Committee. I'd like to be able to say that it will be done within a month's time; hopefully before then. But I know that there have been a number of conversations with Members of this Committee on that, and it is my firm resolve to look at what the CIA has pulled together in response to that report and get back to this Committee on it. Senator Udall. Thank you. I look forward to your firm resolve resulting in an as-soon-as-possible response to this seminal and important report from which we really need to learn the lessons so that we don't repeat the mistakes that were made. Thanks again, and congratulations, Director Brennan. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much, Senator Udall. Senator Collins. Senator Collins. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Director Clapper, in your opening statement, you certainly painted a bleak, dark picture of a very dangerous world. And I share your concern about the impact of sequestration on the Intelligence Community. Senator Udall and I have introduced what I believe to be the only bipartisan flexibility bill that would give, essentially, agencies the ability to set priorities; submit their plans to the Appropriations Committee the way you do with reprogramming requests now. It's sort of an enhanced reprogramming authority. I talked to Senator Mikulski about it. She has a similar vision in mind. I know the Chairman also has an amendment dealing just with the IC. And I just want to encourage you to make the disastrous consequences of sequestration known to the Senate leaders and the House leaders, because that's really where the decision is being made. And I think it's critical that they hear from you, and indeed from all Members of this panel, about what the consequences would be, particularly in light of the dire threat situation that we face. I want to turn now to Iran. During a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing last week, the Commander of U.S. Central Command testified that the current diplomatic and economic efforts to stop Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapons capability are not working. Do you agree with that assessment? Director Clapper. Not completely. I think, as I indicated earlier, the sanctions are having a huge impact on Iran. And I think clearly that that is going to have an influence on their decision-making calculus, and we see indications of that. But where I do agree, at least to this point, is that the sanctions thus far have not induced a change in Iranian government policy. Senator Collins. Well, I think the fact that they haven't produced a change suggests that General Mattis is correct in saying that they're not working. But let me follow up with Mr. Goldberg with a second question. The President has exempted nine countries from fully complying with the sanctions on Iran because they have demonstrated a significant reduction in the purchase of Iranian petroleum-based products. These nine countries, however, include some of Iran's biggest trading partners, including China, India, and Turkey. And Turkey was granted an exemption, even after it conceded that it had helped Iran conduct energy exports through the acquisition of billions of dollars of gold. What is your assessment of what would happen to Iran's fiscal and economic situation if these nine countries were not exempt from the U.S. sanctions policy? Mr. Goldberg. What I can tell you, Senator Collins, is that the overall amount of Iranian oil that is being exported is down considerably; that there were workarounds and exemptions made for those who reduced over time. And that's a constant evaluation and consideration. But the actual amount of Iranian oil being exported is down. And it's probably--well, I think maybe I'd reserve on the exact quantity for a closed session. Senator Collins. I would suggest--and maybe we'll get into this in the closed session--there needs to be much more transparency in order for us to make a judgment on whether or not doing such sweeping exemptions is wise policy. I just want to quickly touch on cyber security, Director Brennan, since you and I worked extremely closely on that issue last year when Senator Lieberman and I repeatedly tried to get our comprehensive bill through. And we also worked very closely with General Alexander. As you know, I had real reservations about the President issuing an Executive Order because I believe it sends the wrong signal that this issue can be taken care of through an Executive Order. So I just want to get you on the record this morning that you do not believe that the Executive Order is a substitute for legislation, and that only legislation can take further actions, such as conferring a grant of immunity on private sector companies that comply with standards. Is that an accurate assessment? Director Brennan. Senator, I'm no longer part of the Policy Community; I'm part of the Intelligence Community now. And what I will just say is that based upon the nature, scope, and diversity of the cyber threat that is out there, I think that we need to do more as a country to address the vulnerabilities that we have and take the steps that we need to in order to protect our infrastructure, our networks, from these types of cyber attacks. And I do believe that there are enhancements in legislation that can be made, and that need to be made, in order to help us as a country protect our systems, our networks, our infrastructure from those types of attacks. Senator Collins. Thank you. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much, Senator. Senator Heinrich. Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Madam Chair. Director Clapper, this Committee spent an awful lot of time examining the process that resulted in the unclassified Benghazi talking points. And you've touched on that a little bit this morning. I just have one simple question around that that I want to ask you: In your professional view of that process, was it in any way unduly politicized? Director Clapper. Absolutely not. Senator Heinrich. Thank you for a very simple answer. We don't get those very often, so I want to say I really appreciate it. I want to move on to Syria for a few minutes. And just to, sort of, set the table, I wanted to ask how you would describe the current state of the opposition in Syria? Director Clapper. Well, the opposition is gaining in strength. It is increasingly gaining territory. At the same time, the regime is--as I indicated in my statement--is experiencing shortages in manpower and logistics. That said, the opposition is still fragmented. There are literally hundreds of these opposition battalions of varying strengths and cuts, and there are attempts being made by the opposition to bring some overarching command and control to that. The bad news in all this, I believe, with respect to the opposition of course, is the increasing prevalence of the al- Nusra Front, which is the al-Qa'ida in Iraq offshoot that has gained strength, both numerically and otherwise, in Syria. And they've been pretty astute about this, and they are, where they can, providing more and more municipal services in what is a very terrible situation from a humanitarian standpoint. As well, there has been a growing infusion of foreign fighters that have been attracted to the conflict in Syria, who have joined the opposition. And so the opposition, in my view, and the al-Nusra Front specifically, has been very astute about that. The question, of course, comes up--how long will Assad last? And our standard answer is his days are numbered; we just don't know the number. I think our assessment is he is very committed to hanging in there and sustaining his control of the regime. Senator Heinrich. How would you assess Iran's overall--the role that they're playing in Syria today? Director Clapper. Well, increasingly, they're being drawn into Syria, both in terms of providing material aid and, as well, advice, to the extent of organizing militias, and that sort of thing. So Iran, together with their surrogate, the Hezbollah, has a huge stake in keeping Syria under control of the regime. It would be a tremendous loss--strategic loss--for the Iranians, if the regime falls. Senator Heinrich. You mentioned that Assad's days are numbered; how do you think Iran is going to, or will react to, a post-Assad Syria? Director Clapper. Well, I think they will try to--that's one of the reasons they're investing, both materially and with advisors and some fighters, is to maintain their interest and their physical presence there, so whatever form some successor regime takes, or if there's fragmentation, that they would at least have a foothold in Syria. I'm saying that, so we really don't know what their strategy is. Senator Heinrich. I'll leave you with one last question, and then I'll give back my time. On Egypt, how capable do you think that the current Egyptian government is in handling the unrest that we're seeing currently? Director Clapper. The unrest, you say? Senator Heinrich. Yes. Director Clapper. Well, they were able to suppress the violence in Port Said that was occasioned by the trials of the so-called ``soccer hooligans.'' So I think they have the capability, and when they put their minds to it, they can maintain order. Senator Heinrich. Thank you. Madam Chair, I yield back. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much, Senator. Senator King. Senator King. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Mr. Clapper, I want to call upon your long years of experience. We put a lot of stock in sanctions and have over the years, and we're putting a lot of stock in sanctions right now in Iran. My concern is that we as Americans tend to think that other countries will think and act and react the way we do, when, in reality, their systems just are very different than ours. My question on Iran is--is there a sufficient middle class who has the political power to have any influence on the regime's decisions, based upon the squeeze applied by the sanctions? In other words, does the supreme ayatollah care that his economy is going down? Director Clapper. Excellent question, sir. And yes, he does. He does care. And it does concern him about the deterioration in the economy because of the prospect for promoting unrest among the citizenry of Iran. And we are seeing more signs of that. At the same time, though, I think the supreme leader's standard is a level of privation that Iran suffered during the Iran-Iraq War. And he doesn't believe they've reached that point yet. And of course, as the supreme leader looks westward, or looks at us, he can argue that, you know, we're on the decline; our influence is declining, particularly in that part of the world. And so, you know, his view of the world may not be necessarily fact-based, particularly when it comes to internal conditions in his country. Senator King. Thank you. Turning again to another longstanding part of U.S. policy, which is nuclear deterrence, which has been our policy since the late 1940s, does deterrence work with a country like North Korea, or Iran? And sort of the same question--do they care? Mutually assured destruction--are they responsive to that kind of rational thinking that guided U.S. policy for fifty years; are these countries like the Soviet Union--that we can have some confidence that they're going to make a rational decision, knowing that if they do something crazy, they're going to be wiped out? Director Clapper. Well, I do think they both understand that. I'm not sure about deterrence for North Korea, where they would expect us to use a nuclear weapon. But they certainly respect the capability of our military. They've gone to school on what we've done, starting with Desert Storm. I know that for a fact. So I think deterrence, in this broadest context, does work, and does have impact on the decision-making calculus of these two countries. Senator King. Mr. Brennan, you had a brief colloquy with Senator Collins on last year's cyber bill. That bill did not get through. There were objections, I understand, from business interests. I know you're not on the policy side anymore, but are there things we can do to get that bill through? There's a certain urgency here, and I believe it went twice before the Senate--it didn't go through either time. What's happening to get that done? Director Brennan. I'm sure there are things that the Congress can do to push this forward. There were differences of view last year on the legislation. Again, I would just underscore the importance of being able to come up with some legislation that's going to be addressed, some of the vulnerabilities that our adversaries are taking advantage of, whether they be states, whether they be activists or organized criminal groups; vulnerabilities exist that we need to be able to address. Senator King. Would you characterize the cyber threat as accelerating? Director Brennan. Absolutely. Senator King. Madam Chairman, that's all I have. Thank you. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much. Just on cyber, the Vice Chairman and I have resolved to try to work together and see if we can't get a bill that we can agree to move through the Committee on the information sharing part of it. That might be of help to you. So we will begin that effort shortly. We will have one other quick round. I have a question on Hezbollah, and this is it, Director: Does the IC assess that Hezbollah and the Iranian Qods Force will continue to conduct terrorist attacks against Israelis and Americans, as Hezbollah has recently done in other places? That's a yes or no question, I think. Director Clapper. Yes. I think they clearly have the intent to do that, when they can. Chairman Feinstein. Okay. How does Hezbollah's capacity compare with that of al-Qa'ida at this time? Director Clapper. I don't think they reach that level of al-Qa'ida--core al-Qa'ida at its height. I don't believe that's the case. I might ask Matt Olsen if he'd like to comment on that. Chairman Feinstein. Good. Mr. Olsen. Director Olsen. Thank you very much, Chairman. I would agree with Director Clapper. To be specific, I wouldn't--compared to core al-Qa'ida ten years ago, Hezbollah is not at that level. Hezbollah does have a presence that extends to many countries around the world. We've seen plots and activity from Hezbollah across the globe, but we haven't seen anything like the capability or activity that we've seen from al-Qa'ida over the last ten years. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you. Mr. Vice Chairman. Vice Chairman Chambliss. Director Olsen, you are the guy who is responsible for gathering all of the information from the Intelligence Community, sifting through it, and making some critical decisions, not only about who gets what, but where the danger is. This is a public hearing. Tell the American public what keeps Matt Olsen awake at night. Director Olsen. Thank you, Mr. Vice Chairman. I would say that there are a number of things that we're particularly concerned about. From an overseas perspective, it is the decentralized nature of the threat from al-Qa'ida. As we've talked about this morning, the threat from core al-Qa'ida is greatly diminished. It is nowhere near where it was ten years ago. But we have seen that threat become geographically dispersed, as affiliated groups, and groups sympathetic to al- Qa'ida and al-Qa'ida's message, have grown in areas--for example, in North Africa. Probably the most significant of those affiliated groups, from our perspective, is al-Qa'ida in the Arabian Peninsula. We've seen AQAP seek to carry out attacks against aviation targets three times over the last several years. So I would put AQAP at the top of the list, from an overseas perspective. Looking closer to home and the Homeland, the number one concern for an attack, albeit a small-scale, unsophisticated attack, likely comes from home grown extremists who may well be inspired or radicalized by the message that al-Qa'ida sends. But it would be more likely a person more likely to act alone or in a very small group to carry out an unsophisticated attack, and that's very difficult for us, from an intelligence perspective, to see in advance and therefore, to be able to disrupt. Vice Chairman Chambliss. Is there an aggressive effort on the part of al-Qa'ida, as well as other affiliated groups, or other terrorist groups, for that matter, to develop American home grown terrorists? Director Olsen. Sir, we definitely have seen--from both al- Qa'ida core in Pakistan, as well as AQAP in Yemen--an effort to reach out beyond those regions into the United States to radicalize individuals who are here who may be susceptible to that kind of a message. They may be simply wayward knuckleheads, but they may well be inspired by that message, and seek to carry out an attack. Vice Chairman Chambliss. Now, let me address that to you also, Director Mueller, since the FBI has jurisdiction over domestic criminal and terrorist activity, and I'd like your comments on what you see taking place, from the standpoint of home grown terrorists. Director Mueller. Let me start by saying that the threat from AQAP, particularly with airliners, has not dissipated over the years. There's still that threat out there. The individuals who were responsible for the previous attempts are still there. So I join him with identifying that as a principal concern overseas. More directly at home, it is the radicalization of individuals on the Internet, who develop the desire and the will to undertake attacks. They're finding it very difficult to find co-conspirators, others that would join in. But then again, the Internet can facilitate that kind of a meeting/ coming together for an attack. And it is the lone wolves that we are principally concerned about. The other point I would put in terms of keeping me awake is cyber, and the fact that what is happening in the cyber arena cuts across any of our disciplines, whether it be counterintelligence or counterterrorism, as well as criminal. And the various objectives, goals, of discrete individuals utilizing the cyber arena, whether it be for criminal purposes or for terrorist purposes, has grown to be right up there with AQAP, home grown terrorists, and cyber attackers. Vice Chairman Chambliss. Thanks, Madam. Chairman Feinstein. Thanks, Mr. Vice Chairman. Senator Rockefeller, are you okay? No, you're not okay? Senator Rockefeller. No, I am--I think I'm okay. I've got a couple of questions I'd like to ask, but I'd rather get to the closed hearing. Chairman Feinstein. Okay. I know, Senator Wyden, you have a question you'd like to ask. Senator Wyden. Just one, Madam Chair, and I thank you. And this is for you, Director Clapper--again, on the surveillance front. And I hope we can do this in just a yes or no answer, because I know Senator Feinstein wants to move on. Last summer, the NSA director was at a conference and he was asked a question about the NSA surveillance of Americans. He replied, and I quote here, ``The story that we have millions, or hundreds of millions, of dossiers on people is completely false.'' The reason I'm asking the question is, having served on the Committee now for a dozen years, I don't really know what a dossier is in this context. So, what I wanted to see is if you could give me a yes or no answer to the question--does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions, or hundreds of millions, of Americans? Director Clapper. No, sir. Senator Wyden. It does not? Director Clapper. Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly. Senator Wyden. All right. Thank you. I'll have additional questions to give you in writing on that point, but I thank you for the answer. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you very much, Senator Wyden. Senator King. Senator King. Just a follow-up on Senator Chambliss' questions--my concern is we keep talking about al-Qa'ida, but my impression, and Mr. Olsen, perhaps I'll direct this to you-- we have to realize that it only takes four or five people these days to mount some kind of threat. Is there a danger that we are so focused on al-Qa'ida that we're going to miss the second cousin of al-Qa'ida that arises in Brazil or someplace, that constitutes a serious threat? Director Olsen. Well, I don't think so. I think that's reflected on this panel. Director Brennan, Director Mueller, Director Clapper--all of us work very closely together to look forward to determine where that next threat is coming from. We're very focused on, for example, the activities of groups in North Africa that may simply be sympathetic to al-Qa'ida, but certainly haven't reached the level of being affiliated officially with al-Qa'ida. And so, all of our organizations--and I certainly know I can speak on behalf of the people working at the National Counterterrorism Center--are laser-focused on trying to identify that next threat. Are we going to be perfect every time? The answer to that is no, but we are very, very focused on trying to look forward to see that next threat, and that's something that we're doing together as a Community. Senator King. Mr. Mueller. Director Mueller. If I might add, we have threats across the board--domestic threats. We have not forgotten the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building in 1995. And while, yes, we look at threats from outside that can be ultimately undertaken within the United States and look at home grown terrorists, we look across the board and try to anticipate, not only with international terrorists affiliated in some way or shape with al-Qa'ida, but with others that are affiliated with more extremist, radicalized groups domestically. Senator King. Are you seeing any increase in the number of those groups not related to Islamic extremists, but more home grown? Director Mueller. I would say, to a certain extent, it's cyclical. If there are groups who may lose their leaders-- either they were incarcerated or have passed--then the capabilities of that group to undertake an attack would be diminished. And we've seen that off and on. We also see that many of the more radical groups or extremist groups do not want to be associated with the lone wolves and will push them out, which is a problem, because if you have surveillance or you can understand what's happening in a substantial extremist group, to have somebody with the intent to undertake attack with nobody around them, that presents a separate special challenge. Director Clapper. We are seeing Northern Africa's, as Matt alluded to, a proliferation of Ansar al-Sharia chapters-- Tunisia and Libya, to name two cases--which seem focused much more on local, regional issues, Western interests only as they are present in those particular countries, and less inclined-- at least at this point--to promote attacks elsewhere, although that's always a possibility. So we watch these groups as they evolve in their objectives. Senator King. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Chairman Feinstein. Thank you. Let me thank you, everyone, first of all, on behalf of this Committee, for your service to the country, for your presence here today, for your testimony--and to those of you that didn't have a chance to respond, we look forward to seeing you in the Committee on some of these issues. We will recess and reconvene directly to our SCIF right down the hall, at the call of the Chair. So thank you, and this hearing is recessed. [Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., the Committee recessed briefly to reconvene in a closed session.]

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