Hearings
Hearing Type:
Open
Date & Time:
Wednesday, June 9, 2021 - 2:30pm
Location:
Hart 216
Witnesses
Full Transcript
[Senate Hearing 117-84]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 117-84
OPEN HEARING: NOMINATIONS OF
ROBIN ASHTON
TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY;
AND
CHRISTINE ABIZAID
TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE
NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 2021
__________
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Intelligence
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
45-489 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
[Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.]
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia, Chairman
MARCO RUBIO, Florida, Vice Chairman
DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California RICHARD BURR, North Carolina
RON WYDEN, Oregon JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico SUSAN COLLINS, Maine
ANGUS KING, Maine ROY BLUNT, Missouri
MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado TOM COTTON, Arkansas
BOB CASEY, Pennsylvania JOHN CORNYN, Texas
KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York BEN SASSE, Nebraska
CHUCK SCHUMER, New York, Ex Officio
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky, Ex Officio
JACK REED, Rhode Island, Ex Officio
JAMES INHOFE, Oklahoma, Ex Officio
----------
Michael Casey, Staff Director
Brian Walsh, Minority Staff Director
Kelsey Stroud Bailey, Chief Clerk
C O N T E N T S
----------
JUNE 9, 2021
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Warner, Hon. Mark R., a U.S. Senator from Virginia............... 1
Rubio, Hon. Marco, a U.S. Senator from Florida................... 3
WITNESSES
Coats, Dan, former U.S. Senator from Indiana, and former Director
of National Intelligence....................................... 4
Letter of support for the nomination of Christine Abizaid.... 7
Letter of support for the nomination of Robin Ashton......... 10
Ashton, Robin, Nominated to be Inspector General of the Central
Intelligence Agency............................................ 11
Prepared statement........................................... 14
Abizaid, Christine, Nominated to be Director of the National
Counterterrorism Center........................................ 17
Prepared statement........................................... 19
SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL
Nomination material for Robin Ashton
Questionnaire for Completion by Presidential Nominees........ 42
Additional Pre-Hearing Questions............................. 60
Post-Hearing Questions....................................... 81
Nomination material for Christine Abizaid
Questionnaire for Completion by Presidential Nominees........ 84
Additional Pre-Hearing Questions............................. 104
Post-Hearing Questions....................................... 126
OPEN HEARING: NOMINATIONS OF
ROBIN ASHTON
TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY;
AND
CHRISTINE ABIZAID
TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE
NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER
----------
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 2021
U.S. Senate,
Select Committee on Intelligence,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m., in
Room SH-216 in the Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Mark R.
Warner (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Warner, Rubio, Wyden, Heinrich, King,
Bennet, Casey, Gillibrand (via WebEx), Burr, Blunt, Cotton,
Cornyn, and Sasse.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARK R. WARNER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
VIRGINIA
Chairman Warner. I'd like to call this hearing to order and
welcome our witnesses and our extraordinarily distinguished
introducer.
My apologies to our witnesses. This is a slightly unusual
time for the Committee to meet. And so there will be a number
of Members joining us midstream.
I welcome to our nominees Christine Abizaid and Robin
Ashton. I believe Robin's husband is here, Dr. Yves Rosenberg.
And Ms. Abizaid's wife is also here, Jill Murphy. So glad that
your family members are here.
Congratulations on your respective nominations to serve as
Director of the National Counterterrorism Center, or NCTC, and
as Inspector General of the CIA.
Welcome, not only to the members of your family that are
here, but those members who are here remotely.
Let me also say on behalf of all of the Committee Members,
we really want to welcome back our good friend, former
Committee Member, former Director of National Intelligence, Dan
Coats, who will be introducing Ms. Ashton.
So, Dan, it is absolutely great to see you. And you can see
the news that you were coming in here to introduce a witness
really got all the Members back.
[Laughter.]
So these are both key positions in the Nation's
Intelligence Community at a time of significant challenges and
also opportunities for our Nation. Both of you have
distinguished records of national service.
Ms. Ashton, the job of Inspector General is critical to the
effective operation of any agency. And should you be confirmed,
I think as history has shown, you're going to have one of the
most important roles at the CIA, because independent and
impartial Inspectors General help to ensure there is robust
oversight of an agency that by necessity undertakes its most
effective and important work in secrecy.
By statute, the CIA Inspector General is expressly mandated
to report not only to the Director, but also to this Committee,
which made it specifically accountable to Congress. This is
necessary that we are able to conduct robust oversight of the
CIA.
This Committee relies upon the Inspectors General of the
intelligence agencies to ensure that the IC organizations are
both using taxpayer dollars wisely, conducting their activities
within the rule and spirit of the law, and supporting and
protecting whistleblowers who report waste, fraud, and abuse.
I enjoyed our recent meeting. I believe you would bring
significant experience to the role of CIA Inspector General,
given your more than 30 years' experience at the Department of
Justice, including head of the Department's Office of
Professional Responsibility, two decades as an Assistant U.S.
Attorney for the District, and given your recent role as a
Principal Deputy IG of the Intelligence Community.
I normally ask nominees for this important post--
[Audio interruption from unknown source: Yes, okay, so now
you see now I have--]
Vice Chairman Rubio. At least it wasn't in Russian.
Chairman Warner. At least it wasn't in Russian this time.
[Laughter.]
I was going to say that we normally ask IGs, will they
speak truth to power? But truthfully, you have shown that
record and your willingness to do so and that you will not give
in to pressure. That is critically important, and we will need
you to maintain that I think critically important record if you
are confirmed, and I hope you will be, when you take on the
role of IG for the CIA.
One more thing I forgot to mention: you would be the first
Senate-confirmed IG at the CIA in seven years. This has been
way too long for this important post. And I'd like to hear your
ideas about what you hope you can accomplish in this key role
in assuming and running this important office. Ms. Ashton,
thank you again for being here and agreeing to take on this
serious responsibility.
Ms. Abizaid, congratulations on your nomination. You also
bring significant experience to your position: as Deputy
Assistant Secretary of Defense for Afghanistan, Pakistan, and
Central Asia; on the National Security Council; in the private
sector; and for over a decade as a senior counterterrorism
intelligence officer at the DIA. You've obviously had a number
of other roles.
NCTC, as you know, was created in the wake of September 11,
2001, to connect the dots and ensure that a terrorist attack
like 9/11 never occurs again on our soil. Twenty years on,
although we are increasingly focused on great power
competition, our terrorist adversaries continue to operate
globally and aspire to attack U.S. interests.
Those of us on this Committee know that plots continue to
evolve every day. American interests, allies, and our military
men and women deployed remain terrorist targets. And
unfortunately, because of those actions, some of them don't
make it back to their families.
ISIS is still a threat around the world, not just in Syria.
Moreover, the dangerous ideologies of violent extremism,
whether jihadist or white supremacists, continue to draw
followers around the globe and to inspire attacks against
innocent civilians.
As well, we know Al Qaida also remains a threat. I'm
concerned that as U.S. forces draw down in Afghanistan and have
already withdrawn from Somalia, it will become more difficult
to gain actionable intelligence on terrorists who still operate
in these locations. So I'd welcome your thoughts on how the CT
mission will be undertaken, especially after the Afghan
withdrawal is complete. I look forward to understanding how you
would define success should you be confirmed and what role with
this changing threat environment as well as the, I think,
appropriate focus on our traditional great power adversaries,
how NCTC will evolve in this world.
Now, after the Vice Chairman and I give our opening
statements, Director Coats will say a few words and then our
witnesses will be given their statements. After this, Members'
questions will be five minutes in order of seniority.
Again, thank you both for agreeing to step forward. I look
forward to your testimony. And I now recognize the
distinguished Vice Chairman.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARCO RUBIO, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
FLORIDA
Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank both of our nominees for being here today,
for their willingness to serve in these critical capacities. I
also want to join the Chairman in thanking Ms. Ashton's
husband, Ms. Abizaid's wife, for your willingness to also be
supportive of this. We all know these jobs involve the strong
support of family in that regard. And so we're grateful to all
of you for your willingness to step forward and your enthusiasm
for the roles that you're about to fulfill, if confirmed.
Let me just say, on Director Coats, I told him this earlier
when I saw him. I said he looked substantially more relaxed and
much better than he did the last time we had him sitting at
that table a couple years ago. So life is good. And we're
always happy to see you around again. We have tremendous
respect for you and everyone on the Committee that served with
you does.
The National Counterterrorism Center was established
obviously after 9/11 to ensure better communication and
coordination among the agencies by analyzing and integrating
all the intelligence possessed or acquired by our government
pertaining to terrorism and to counterterrorism. A key in that
language--and that threat remains, even now--as Ms. Abizaid and
I had a brief conversation about this. Even now, as we focus on
the growing great power competition, we cannot forget that the
threat from terrorism remains and exists.
My own home state of Florida has been impacted by it both
in Pensacola and almost five years ago today in Orlando,
Florida. So we know that this continues to be an ongoing
threat. It's an important enterprise.
But it's interesting that--and as we read through the
language that created it--it's very clear that it pertains to
terrorism and counterterrorism, accepting intelligence
pertaining exclusively to domestic terrorists and domestic
counterterrorism. And that's an important topic for two
reasons, number one, because we do have a domestic terror
problem of individuals who've been radicalized and take action,
and that needs to be confronted. I don't know of anyone who
would dispute that.
The question is, what role do our foreign-geared
intelligence agencies play in that regard? Because as we've
discussed, you know, some of the more troubling moments in the
history of our intelligence agencies has been when they've been
turned against a solely domestic threat.
So it's a balancing act we're going to have to work
through. And I know there'll be some questions about that.
Remaining focused on that mission is particularly important,
because I said that the counterterrorism threat is there and
that work continues, needs to continue to happen.
Ms. Ashton, I look forward to hearing about how you'll lead
the IG's office and your vision for a productive and beneficial
working relationship with this Committee. Our oversight role
and your role that you've been nominated to fill, they share a
lot of the same goals. And so as I expressed to you when we
met, I think one of the most important things this Committee
always aspires to is, particularly when a complaint rises to a
level of significance that we should learn about, it's
important for this Committee to know about that.
And I think you'll find that in that regard this is a
Committee that takes its oversight role very seriously in
matters that could undermine the important work that occurs at
the Agency.
So, again, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being
here. We look forward to hearing your testimony and your
answers to our questions.
Chairman Warner. Thank you, Senator Rubio.
I now recognize the distinguished former Member of this
Committee and former Director of National Intelligence Dan
Coats for his statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. DAN COATS, A FORMER U.S. SENATOR FROM THE
STATE OF INDIANA, AND FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE
Senator Coats. Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you very
much for the introduction of me. It is an honor for me to be
here today to introduce Robin Ashton as President Biden's
nominee for the position of Inspector General at the Central
Intelligence Agency.
Given my previous membership on this Committee, in term as
Director of National Intelligence, I'm keenly aware of the key
role played by Inspectors General.
I want to say to my colleagues, though, it's nice to be
back. As a private citizen, I want you to know that any
interactions or conversations that we have had while I was a
Member of the Committee will be classified for as long as I
live. I just want to assure people here. But it's fun to be
back here with you. And I do think that it was much easier
being up there than a witness down here. Robin is someone that
I think is an extraordinary individual with an extraordinary
background.
And if you have had the opportunity to look through her
professional employment as a public servant, it is remarkable.
Her journey is amazing. And if you haven't had the chance to
read it--I'm sure your staff has--but I urge you to. If you
have any questions about her qualities and capabilities, look
through what she has accomplished in her life, which is
extraordinary.
I would like to spend just a moment or two discussing my
personal experience working with Robin during her time as
Deputy IC IG. Robin played a very important role in proving the
functioning of the IC IG office in her time there. Furthermore,
she demonstrated exactly the characteristics desired in an
Inspector General.
Her first and foremost priority was always to promote the
efficient operation of the ODNI and the broader Intelligence
Community. She worked collaboratively with me and my senior
leaders and the team to identify and correct issues related to
the ODNI. Of course, there's often some tension between
agencies and their Inspector Generals. And Robin was never
afraid to challenge me and my team when she felt there were
areas where we should be doing more to ensure the proper
functioning of the ODNI and the IC.
I always felt that she approached every issue in an honest
and fair way, with the best interests of the ODNI Intelligence
Community at heart. And given my experience with working with
her and her exceptional capabilities, I have no doubt that
should she be confirmed her integrity, professionalism, and
independence to perform her duties of the CIA Inspector General
will be done with distinction.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to introduce
this exceptional nominee for CIA Inspector General.
Chairman Warner. Well, thank you, Director Coats. Senator
Rubio and I were talking that the last time I believe you
testified before this Committee, you did it with such
straightforwardness and forthrightness that you very soon lost
your job. So I hope your testimony today does not result in the
same actions now that you're back as a private citizen.
But, Dan, it is always great to see you. You know, as an
alumnus of this Committee that you are somebody who we all have
enormous respect for, both from your time on the Committee, but
particularly for your steadfast role as DNI. We thank you for
your service. And it's great, great to see you.
Thank you, Sir.
Senator Coats. Thank you.
Chairman Warner. I now ask unanimous consent that the
letters of support for the nominees received by the Committee
be entered into the record.
[No response.]
Without objection.
[Letters of support for the Witnesses follow:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
With that, we'll proceed to administering the oath. Will
the witnesses please stand and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear to give this Committee the truth, the
full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Ms. Abizaid. Yes.
Ms. Ashton. I do.
Chairman Warner. Please be seated.
Before we move to your opening statements, I'll ask you to
answer five standard questions the Committee poses to each
nominee who appears before us. They require a simple yes or no
for the record.
First, do you agree to appear before the Committee here or
in other venues when invited?
Ms. Abizaid. Yes.
Ms. Ashton. I do.
Chairman Warner. If confirmed, do you agree to send
officials from your office to appear before the Committee and
designated staff when invited?
Ms. Abizaid. Yes.
Ms. Ashton. Yes.
Chairman Warner. Do you agree to provide documents or any
other materials requested by the Committee in order for it to
carry out its oversight and legislative responsibilities?
Ms. Abizaid. Yes.
Ms. Ashton. Yes.
Chairman Warner. Will you ensure that your office and your
staff provide such materials to the Committee when requested?
Ms. Abizaid. Yes.
Ms. Ashton. Yes.
Chairman Warner. Do you agree to inform and fully brief to
the fullest extent possible all Members of this Committee of
intelligence activities and covert actions, rather than only
the Chairman and Vice Chairman?
Ms. Abizaid. Yes.
Ms. Ashton. Yes.
Chairman Warner. Thank you very much. We'll now proceed to
your opening statements, after which I'll recognize Members by
seniority for up to five minutes each.
Ms. Ashton, are you going first?
Ms. Ashton. Yes, Sir.
STATEMENT OF ROBIN ASHTON, NOMINEE TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF
THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
Ms. Ashton. Good afternoon. Chairman Warner, Vice Chairman
Rubio, and Members of the Intelligence Committee, it is an
honor to appear before you as President Biden's nominee to be
the Inspector General of the Central Intelligence Agency. I am
grateful to President Biden for placing his trust and
confidence in me to lead this important office.
If confirmed, I would be honored to work with all of you
and with the courageous, hard-working, and remarkable people of
the CIA, including Director Burns and Deputy Director Cohen. I
will strive each day to justify the trust placed in me and to
uphold the highest standards of the office.
I am also deeply grateful to Dan Coats for his generous
introduction. His long history of dedicated public service is
not only impressive, but truly inspiring.
I would like to recognize my family and friends who are
here today or watching remotely, especially my husband of 26
years, Dr. Yves Rosenberg, my children, Jack and Juliette
Rosenberg, and my sister, Ann Riopelle. The love and support of
my family and friends has been invaluable to me over the years,
as they have taught me through their examples how to weather
the bad times and cherish the good.
As noted in my pre-hearing materials, I have spent nearly
35 years in public service, holding numerous positions across
both Republican and Democratic administrations, including as a
Federal prosecutor working in the U.S. Attorney's office in the
District of Columbia, as the Director of the Department of
Justice's Office of Professional Responsibility, and as the
Principal Deputy Inspector General of the Intelligence
Community.
Over the course of my career, I have had the privilege of
serving alongside hard-working Federal employees in numerous
capacities, the administrative and personnel staffs, lawyers
and paralegals, agents and law enforcement officers,
investigators and analysts, as well as those who clean the
offices and work in the cafeterias, security personnel, and
countless others. They all come to work day after day knowing
that they will probably never be publicly recognized for their
tireless efforts. They work hard not for recognition, but
because they derive satisfaction from working on a shared
mission.
After 35 years, I am still inspired by these dedicated
public servants whom I am so fortunate to call my friends, my
colleagues, and my mentors. Their honorable service and
countless acts of kindness toward me and others have taught me
how to be a better public servant and a better person.
I know that the brave officers of the CIA have also
demonstrated this extraordinary and selfless commitment to
public service, and I would be honored to work with them.
However, when you review my resume and hear me speak about
my decades-long career as a lawyer in the Federal Government,
you cannot fully glean who I am as a person. Before I could
embark on my rewarding legal career, I first had to work my way
through both college and law school by holding numerous, often
grueling jobs, as an assembly line worker with the Ford Motor
Company in the Detroit area, as a waitress, and as a custodian
working the night shift at the University of Michigan Hospital.
These tough jobs taught me a number of valuable lessons
about hard work and respecting those who do these demanding
jobs every day, perhaps the most significant being that someone
punching the clock at the start of a long shift or wearing a
waitress's or custodian's uniform deserves the same level of
respect as everyone else, if not more. These experiences have
impacted every part of my life, my way of thinking, and the way
I view myself and my responsibility toward others.
Living paycheck to paycheck also taught me that the tax
dollars of hard-working Americans should not be squandered. I
therefore believe that Inspectors General hold some of the most
important positions in the Federal Government. It is through
their efforts that waste, fraud, and abuse, as well as
mismanagement, abuses of authority, and unlawful practices can
be and are detected and prevented and systemic solutions can be
and are found.
If confirmed, I will treat my responsibility to identify
and prevent waste, fraud, and abuse with the seriousness it
deserves. I will highlight the CIA's incredible strengths,
while also identifying areas that could benefit from
modification or improvement.
I sincerely believe that the American people desire and
deserve a government that is effective and accountable. It is
important to acknowledge the critical role whistleblowers play
in ensuring a responsible and honest government. They are often
the first people to witness or learn about wasteful practices
or possible wrongdoing. Because members of the Intelligence
Community must work in a classified environment in which
information about intelligence programs and activities is not
available for public review, their duty and ability to lawfully
disclose information regarding potential wrongdoing is critical
to the oversight process.
I know this Committee supports whistleblowers. If
confirmed, I commit to ensuring that the CIA continues to have
an effective whistleblower program. Those who demonstrate the
personal ethics and moral courage to bring concerns forward
must not fear or suffer from reprisal for speaking up.
I deeply respect this Committee's important oversight role.
I appreciated the opportunity to meet with many of you before
this hearing so that I could answer your questions, listen to
your concerns, and learn from your insights. If confirmed, I
pledge to work with this and other intelligence oversight
committees in an open and productive way as we engage in our
shared effort to ensure continued efficiency, effectiveness,
and accountability in the programs and activities of the CIA.
I am truly honored to be here today. Thank you for your
consideration of my nomination. I look forward to answering
your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Ashton follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Warner. Thank you, Ms. Ashton.
Ms. Abizaid, before I call on you, I should note that, when
we agreed to commit for the record letter of recommendation,
Ms. Abizaid has received endorsements from four prior NCTC
directors, which I'd urge Committee Members to review.
Ma'am?
STATEMENT OF CHRISTINE ABIZAID, NOMINEE TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE
NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER
Ms. Abizaid. Chairman Warner, Vice Chairman Rubio, Members
of the Committee, it is a privilege to appear before you today
to be considered for the role of Director of the National
Counterterrorism Center. I am both honored and humbled by this
opportunity to return to government service, the Intelligence
Community, and the counterterrorism field.
I want to thank President Biden and Director Haines for
their confidence in my ability to lead the center and to help
steer the United States' counterterrorism enterprise at this
critical stage.
I want to especially thank my wife for her love and
support. Without her encouragement, I would not be here today.
If I am fortunate enough to be confirmed, the burden of keeping
our lives running smoothly will fall more squarely on her
shoulders even as she pursues her own demanding career.
To our son, what your future holds is in its own way
motivation to serve again. We will raise you to value sacrifice
for your countrymen just as we both were raised.
Along those lines, I would like to recognize my family for
being such a compelling example of public service. My father
served for more than 30 years as an officer in the United
States Army and later as a diplomat. Growing up, I was always
proud of him and the uniform that he wore.
But it was not until I began my own career at the Defense
Intelligence Agency that I got to know my father by his
professional reputation, as the highly decorated, deeply
respected, brilliant, and battle-tested soldier that he is.
My mother also served as an Army and State Department
spouse. Her ability to navigate the everyday chaos of Army life
with calm, optimism, and grit was an inspiration to me. She is
the foundation of our close-knit family.
The example she and my father set for me and my siblings
encouraged our own forms of service. My brother enlisted in the
Army after high school, and 9/11 was supposed to be his first
day of boot camp. And I stand in awe of my sister's resilience
as an Army wife in the post-9/11 era. She and her husband, an
Army officer and Ranger, have been separated by near constant
deployment cycles since 2001.
While he commands on the front lines, she leads on the home
front, guiding and inspiring Ranger families in addition to her
own.
For my own part, my years of government service were
squarely rooted in the attacks on 9/11. And while it has been
several years since I was last part of the CT community, even
from the outside, it is clear that the terrorist threat to
Americans and U.S. interests persists. This is not to say it is
unchanged. It has evolved significantly in the last two
decades. The threat from groups like Al Qaida and the Islamic
state is in some ways diminished, but it is also more diffuse,
active across an ever broadening geographic terrain. These
groups appear less organized against the homeland, but also
more technologically sophisticated, leveraging social media
platforms to widen their appeal.
Meanwhile, the threat from other terrorist elements remains
urgent, whether posed by domestic violent extremists, Iranian-
sponsored proxies, racially motivated terrorists, or others, we
must not lose sight of the diversity of the threats that
confront the United States.
Now, while terrorism does remain a challenge, I believe our
country's ability to address it is unmatched. Reforms after 9/
11, including those led by Members of this Committee, created a
counterterrorism and homeland security enterprise that is
agile, collaborative, and proactive in mitigating threats to
the United States.
In particular, the creation of the National
Counterterrorism Center in 2004 institutionalized the
integration of CT-related intelligence and has since been a key
enabler of the United States' ability to holistically address
the evolving threats to our interests. American citizens, they
have done their part, too. I believe today we are a country
more resilient in the face of terrorism than at any time in our
history.
This mature CT capability is even more important at a time
of heightened strategic competition, especially related to
China, rising cybersecurity threats, and a technological
revolution that will present both challenges and opportunities.
It is in this environment that the counterterrorism capability
we have invested in so steadfastly over the years must be both
effective and efficient in protecting our country.
And this is doubly true for an organization like NCTC,
purpose-built to prevent, detect, and deter threats to the
United States.
In closing, I would like to acknowledge the great
contribution of all of our national security professionals, but
especially those at the National Counterterrorism Center. It
would be a distinct honor to lead the men and women who make up
the center who have so selflessly devoted their lives to
protecting the Nation and who have asked for their family's
support in doing so. If confirmed as their director, I commit
to doing everything in my power to ensure these public servants
have the tools and capabilities necessary to succeed.
I further commit to ensuring that NCTC fulfills its duty to
protect the United States with the utmost integrity and a deep
appreciation for the trust that has been placed in it by the
American people.
Finally, I commit to working with this Committee, among
others, to keep Congress fully and currently informed of the
center's activities so that you can discharge your critical
oversight responsibilities on behalf of the Nation.
Thank you again for this opportunity to appear before you
today. I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Abizaid follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Warner. Thank you both.
For planning purposes, any Members of the Committee who
wish to submit questions for the record after today's hearing,
please do so by 5 p.m. this Friday, June 11th. And then we'll
be recognizing Members for five minutes in order of seniority.
Ms. Ashton, first of all, again, I enjoyed our time
visiting. And appreciated your presentation both in terms of
your background and obviously your caring for your colleagues.
And I think that's part of the role of the IG is to not only
ferret out waste and abuse, but be that independent voice that
can listen to your colleagues should they see inappropriate
behavior.
I was going to ask you a question about the role of
whistleblowers, but the truth is you've already shown your
protection and your willingness to stand up for whistleblowers.
As a matter of fact, that also cost you your job as a Principal
Deputy IG over the last few years. So I have great faith in
your commitment to the whistleblower program.
So my question, instead, is we've not had a Senate-
confirmed IG at the CIA for seven years. There are concerns
particularly from the last administration about a White House
that often ignored the recommendations of the intel community.
And with as much specificity as possible, recognizing you
haven't got into this job yet, what steps can you take to both
restore the morale and that sense of purpose of the workforce
at the Agency and within specifically the Office of the IG?
Ms. Ashton. Well, thank you, Senator Warner. It was a
distinct pleasure for me to be able to meet with you the other
day. And I enjoyed our discussion very much. And I appreciated
your insights on a number of topics.
I was able when I was the Principal Deputy Inspector
General for the Intelligence Community to meet many people in
the CIA. And I felt very fortunate to be able to work with them
on a lot of different projects. So I very much look forward, if
I'm confirmed, to being able to meet the people in the Office
of the Inspector General.
And I very much look forward to establishing a relationship
with them that I think is so important, because I think that I
have to lead by example, so that when they come to me with
concerns inside of the Office of Inspector General, I listen to
them and I allow dissent and I allow them to be heard.
So, first, I have to establish that kind of trustful
relationship with my own people. I might be viewed as somewhat
of an outsider because I spent most of my career in the
Department of Justice, but I found that when I came to the
Intelligence Community for the first time and started my role
as the Principal Deputy Inspector General for the Intelligence
Community, the people there were so welcoming. They allowed me
to enter their world, which was quite new for me, and they
helped me learn from them.
And I think that'll be very important when I go, if I'm
confirmed to the Inspector General's office for CIA, that I let
them know I want to learn from them. Many of these people that
I will be working with, if I'm confirmed, have spent their
whole careers in the CIA. And I will respect that. I will look
forward to working with them and learning from them.
And I also just think that it's so crucial when you're
talking about morale to let people know how much I personally
respect what they've done with their lives, what they're doing,
what their mission is, and that I will always defend them when
they are doing the right thing and working so hard and
tirelessly. I will protect them and defend them in appropriate
ways.
Another thing that I've done that really helped morale--
actually, it wasn't me doing it--but the Inspector General and
I invited people, for example, from this Committee to speak to
our employees at the Inspector General's Office. And for
example, Senator King spoke at one of our biggest conferences,
hundreds of people from the Intelligence Community, and we had
a senator from this Committee speaking to them, and it meant so
much to people, because that message of what you do is
important to us. We're joined as partners in the oversight
process. That resonated and it meant a lot to the people.
And another thing is that Mr. Coats, as the Director of
National Intelligence, came and spoke to our people, as well,
and again emphasized how important the partnership is between
leadership in the Agency itself and with these people in the
Office of Inspector General.
So I think all of these things are important in
establishing a good morale. But if I'm confirmed, if I'm so
fortunate to be confirmed, I look forward to working with the
amazingly gifted and talented people of the CIA.
Chairman Warner. Thank you, ma'am.
And, Ms. Abizaid, I will get you on the next round. Senator
Rubio?
Vice Chairman Rubio. Well, Ms. Abizaid, we had an
opportunity to talk about this. It's a tricky issue, right,
because of this domestic violent extremist issue. I don't think
there's any dispute that these people out there--they're
dressed up like GI Joe and they think they're going to go out
and attack people in the political class or storm the Capitol
or any other government building. I don't think anyone would
dispute they should be arrested for that. They should be put in
jail.
You know, my concern, obviously, is any time, if you look
at the history of the Intelligence Community, some of its most
troubling moments are when our intelligence capabilities were
used to target Americans. And both Republican and Democratic
presidents did that, unfortunately. And in fact, that some of
that led to the inception and the creation of this very
Committee.
So the situation I'm really concerned about--and seeing
these lines blurred is a situation in which you have people or
an individual that's based and is operating in the United
States, no direction, no inspiration from a foreign terror
group or a foreign power, and they seek to further their
political or social goals through violence or force or things
that are not, you know, protected speech and so forth.
In your mind, that clearly--what I've just described--
they're operating in the United States, they're not taking
direction or inspiration from a foreign power or foreign terror
group, and obviously they're furthering their goals through
violence. In your mind, is that in or outside the purview of
the job you've been nominated to serve?
Ms. Abizaid. Thank you for the question, Senator. And we
did have a chance to discuss this. And I appreciated the time
and hearing your views on that.
But this is squarely in the purview of the FBI and the
Department of Homeland Security. NCTC's role, in my view, would
be one of support to those agencies as they take the lead in
the homeland on domestic violent extremist threats.
Now, NCTC was granted some unique authorities to have
access to both foreign and domestic intelligence around
terrorist threats so that we are able to connect the dots. I
mean, that was fundamentally the reason for NCTC's founding to
be able to connect the dots, integrate intelligence from
multiple sources, and ensure we don't miss that very important
nexus to a foreign power or foreign terrorist organizations.
So, you know, NCTC's role here is an important role to
play. When it is purely domestic terrorism, it should be
playing it in support of those lead agencies in the Federal
Government, the FBI and DHS. And I share your concerns about
the rise in domestic violent extremism. I also share your
concerns that we appropriately leverage IC resources in a way
that protects privacies and civil liberties.
So that's an important balance to strike. And I look
forward, if confirmed, to making sure that we're doing that.
Vice Chairman Rubio. Now, it gets a little bit more
complicated now. And again, I'm not asking these as strict
questions. It's to highlights sort of the balancing act here
and how this can get problematic in a hurry, because, for
example, as I said to you, we shouldn't lack imagination in
thinking that a foreign adversary could see the existence of
these groups and figure out a way to use a third party to
funnel money to them, because it helps them to weaken us
domestically. So in that sense, it's something we want to be
aware of.
So we're coming up on the anniversary of the shooting at
Pulse. This was an individual that had not traveled, was not in
a terrorist training camp, but clearly was inspired, and said
so, by ISIS and Al Qaida. So putting that example aside, which
is I think pretty clear-cut, sometimes these individuals in
their rants claim to be part of a global movement, anti-
globalization movement. Or they're not a member of any group.
They're not interacting with anybody directly, but they think
they're part of a broader movement. That's a little bit
cloudier.
I know it's more of a legal interpretation, but in your
mind, does the fact that someone thinks they're part of some
sort of a global movement, that they're not a member of--not a
membership card or going to meetings of this nature--but just
seem to think that they're part of a broader effort globally,
does that rise to the level of turning it into a domestic
violent extremist group that you would have input on?
Ms. Abizaid. So, Senator, I think you're raising exactly
some of the complexities that we're going to need to work
through. But, I mean, ideological alignment with something that
you believe is a global movement does not in and of itself make
it a foreign terrorist threat.
Obviously, it would all be the particulars of the case. And
being aligned to an ideological movement that is something that
has protected speech, that's not something that would be in the
purview of NCTC's concern.
I think the way that I have understood Director Wray to
consider this is if you're engaged in violence against the
United States and its citizens, then that is what makes you the
target of interest to the FBI, to DHS, and for those of us that
care about the security of Americans and inside the United
States. And that would be--the focus is the violent behavior,
the violent activity that that we seek to thwart.
Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you.
Chairman Warner. Senator Wyden?
Senator Wyden. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Ashton, we very much appreciate your record of the
courage that you've expressed in the past. And as you and I
talked about, the CIA has an unfortunate history of striking
back at its own Inspector General. Director Hayden did this in
response to the Inspector General's investigation of torture.
Director Brennan did this after the Inspector General
investigated the CIA's spying on this Committee.
Can you assure us this afternoon that this history will not
influence what you choose to review or how you choose to review
it?
Ms. Ashton. Thank you, Senator Wyden, for that very good
conversation that we had the other day. I learned a lot from
you about that history, and it was very interesting to me. I
hadn't known all of those details, to tell you the truth.
But I can assure this Committee that the way I have
practiced law for the last 35 years and the way I've handled my
career for the last 35 years, mostly as a prosecutor, trying
some of the toughest cases that you can try, and when I was at
the Office of Professional Responsibility where I was in a
somewhat sensitive situation where I was the Director of the
Office of Professional Responsibility, which was responsible
for deciding whether assistant U.S. attorneys and the agents
working with them had committed misconduct or engaged in any
kind of illegal or unlawful practices, whether they should be
disciplined, whether they should be fired.
All of those positions and others that I've had required
great strength and independence and the ability and the
willingness to look at facts and follow the facts, analyze
those facts, and if they lead, wherever they lead, you go to
that conclusion, that place, without any kind of partiality,
bias, or thinking about what happened to prior Inspectors
General, for example.
I will not do that. I will focus on the facts and I will
analyze them and act appropriately on those facts. But I will
not be intimidated by what has happened to my predecessors,
because that would just take my eye off the important ball. And
the important thing, the goal that we are trying to achieve
here is to achieve effective oversight.
I will be a partner with this Committee in that effort. And
I will not be distracted by what might have happened to my
predecessors.
Senator Wyden. I was impressed by your past record, and
your exemplary statement today is consistent with it. And I
look forward to supporting your nomination.
Ms. Ashton. Thank you.
Senator Wyden. I have a question for Ms. Abizaid.
Ms. Abizaid, less than three months ago, the National
Counterterrorism Center released its own 12333 procedures
related to when it can collect, retain, and search for
information on Americans.
For example, the Agency can collect, quote, ``publicly
available information.'' Do you believe that includes
commercially available data? And if so, do you believe that the
Center should be intentionally purchasing the personal data of
Americans?
Ms. Abizaid. Thank you very much, Senator, for the
question. I'm generally aware of the issue. I haven't engaged
in it deeply just because I haven't been in the Intelligence
Community here for the last recent years.
That's my understanding on this particular issue. Director
Haines has also recognized the complexity here and committed to
working with this Committee to develop a framework that should
guide Intelligence Community procedures, including those of
NCTC, on this very important issue.
You know, if I am confirmed, I would commit to working
closely with her and with Members of this Committee, with you
in particular, to make sure that we're striking the right
balance related to that framework.
Senator Wyden. All right. I'll have some additional
questions for the record for you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Warner. Senator Burr?
Senator Burr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome to both of our nominees today. I enjoyed the time
that we've spent together.
Mr. Chairman, let me just say, these are two excellent
nominees. And I would hope that the Committee would move
expeditiously at confirming these two nominees. We desperately
need them in the jobs. We need them there today.
I've got a question for each of you. Christine, I've got to
say, I'm not sure whether you're showing your strength in
accepting this nomination or your intelligence, given that
you've got a 15-month-old at home. I'll let your wife determine
which one you're exercising there. But having raised them and
now with three grandchildren, I'm like Dan Coats. I spend a
little more time away from them than I need to.
Christine, here's my question. What are your plans about
right-sizing NCTC? And how do you make sure that you've got the
talent that you need there to perform the mission?
Ms. Abizaid. Thank you, Senator. I think it's a really
important question. And, yes, I am deliberately trying to miss
the terrible twos by accepting this opportunity.
You know, when I look at the role of the National
Counterterrorism Center, it is absolutely essential that it's
got the right expertise. And the right expertise is not just
those cadre that are hired directly into ODNI and into the
center, but it's the expertise that is provided across the
community, that we've got a robust counterterrorism community.
It's one that at the center, when you mix CIA analysts with FBI
analysts with DIA analysts with NCTC analysts, you get the best
interagency perspective about what's happening in the world.
You get the best ability to communicate across silos in the
Federal Government. And I think it's what makes the National
Counterterrorism Center excellent at what it does.
So I think that will be a really important piece if
confirmed as its director, for me to look into, understand the
manning, understand where there are holes, if there are any,
and then work with my partners across the counterterrorism
enterprise to make sure that we're doing what we can to staff
it appropriately.
When I think about the kind of efficiencies that we in the
counterterrorism enterprise are going to need to consider,
especially as resources are limited and priorities are broad
across the national security portfolio, I think the effective
use of the Center, investing in it as the place where we
narrowly focus on counterterrorism, is going to be to the good
of the entire Intelligence Community.
Senator Burr. Great, thanks.
Robin, your role--it sort of requires you to straddle a
really tricky line. You need to be independent, but to be
successful, the IG needs to know what's going on in the
agencies. How do you plan to balance your office's independent
role with the need to engage the Agency community?
Ms. Ashton. Well, thank you so much for that wonderful
question. And I did appreciate speaking with you at length last
week. It was a very good conversation, and I appreciated your
time.
But the question's so important, because of course the need
to balance the independence of the Office of Inspector General
while also working collaboratively at most times with the
Agency itself, it's an important balance to strike. And
sometimes, like you just suggested, it can be difficult.
But when I was working at the Inspector General's Office
for the Intelligence Community, I believe that the Inspector
General and I were able to achieve that balance by doing a lot
of outreach events and meetings and training sessions, getting
to know as many people in the ODNI as we could, working quite
collaboratively and effectively with leadership whenever we
could.
Often leadership, such as Mr. Coats, would ask us for our
insights about what should be looked at or how things might be
looked at, perhaps for our opinions on policy changes or needs,
and we appreciated all of those opportunities to give our
insights based on what we were doing with our wonderful
auditors and analysts and investigators and others, based on
the information we were able to gather, how could we help them
make the best decisions they could make?
And so ours was one of the voices that they listened to.
And we seized on all of those opportunities to work with the
ODNI itself whenever we could in a collaborative way.
I don't view the Inspector General as somebody who just
comes in with bad news or a ``gotcha'' moment. I don't think
that that's effective at all. We have to understand that the
leadership also wants the very best for its agency. And if we
come at it with that view and try to help make it more
effective, then I think we can work collaboratively, but always
mindful that in the end the Inspector General and her office
needs to be independent of the Agency, so that if we find
things that are not working well or if we find even
mismanagement or unlawful practices, we have to be independent
of the leadership and the Agency and be able to speak out and
do the right thing based on the facts that we compile in our
inspections and audits, et cetera.
Chairman Warner. Senator King?
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First, I want to welcome our old friend Dan Coats, and what
a pleasure it is to see you. And you were a distinguished
Senator, but I think you were an even more distinguished
Director of National Intelligence, because you showed what
honesty and courage in public service looks like.
And I've quoted you probably a hundred times on the mission
of the intelligence agency. To me, you gave the most succinct
definition, which is to seek the truth and tell the truth. And
that's exactly what you did. So I want to thank you, Senator
Coats, Director Coats, for your service.
Ms. Ashton, normally I spend time with IG nominees talking
about independence just as we have done today. I don't think
that's really necessary with you, because you've proved it. You
showed that you have both the independence and the courage to
do the right thing, to meet the obligations of the job.
I just would note that it occurs to me that the IG in a
clandestine agency is incredibly important. IGs, I think, are
some of the most important jobs in our government, but in a
secret agency, it's even more important, because nobody else is
watching. And they don't have the level of public scrutiny that
might occur for the Department of the Interior, the Department
of Energy, the Department of Agriculture.
So this job is especially weighty in its responsibility.
Your job is to be a flea on the dog of the CIA and that means
bite them every now and then, and hold them to the highest
level of ethical and legal standards.
Ms. Abizaid, in terms of terrorism, my greatest nightmare
is not terrorists who get through on an airplane or something
like that. It's a terrorist organization that gets hold of a
nuclear weapon, whether by development in this technologically
advanced age or by purchase from a rogue state.
Talk to me about how we can deter. We have nuclear
deterrence for nation-states. Deterrence doesn't work for
somebody who would just as soon give up their life. So how do
we protect ourselves from that nightmare scenario?
Ms. Abizaid. Thank you, Senator.
I share the concern. I think all of us, especially in the
immediate aftermath of 9/11, were terribly concerned about the
possibility of terrorists having access to weapons of mass
destruction.
Senator King. Those people killed 3,000 people. They would
have killed 3 million if they could have.
Ms. Abizaid. Absolutely. And it's absolutely essential that
this is an area where the experts in nuclear security, the
experts in nonproliferation and counter-proliferation, and the
experts in counterterrorism need to work across their different
areas of expertise and make sure that we're sharing
information, assessing threats, and doing everything we can
with the highest degree of priority to deter terrorist access
to these kinds of weapons of mass destruction.
Senator King. I would submit that one of our first lines of
defense is intelligence.
Ms. Abizaid. Absolutely.
Senator King. Knowing where this material is, being able to
detect how it's being transported, and where it might end up.
So I urge you to pay attention to the nonproliferation regime,
because this is such a dangerous threat to our country.
Afghanistan-Pakistan--we're in the process of withdrawing.
It's been an important counterterrorism base for us over the
years. Can we maintain the counterterrorism function in that
region without a military presence in Afghanistan? And if so,
how?
Ms. Abizaid. So this is something that, if I'm confirmed,
is going to be one of my early questions and early priorities
going into the job. I think that that is absolutely the most
important thing that the Intelligence Community develop a
strategy for and an approach to, given the withdrawal of U.S.
forces from the region.
There will be a diminishment in intelligence collection in
the region, no doubt, given the lower footprint from the United
States, but determining what kind of over-the-horizon
capabilities there are, what kind of access to source networks,
et cetera, that's got to be a priority, given the myriad of
threats that already exist in the region and our number-one
focus being ensuring that that region doesn't become a platform
for transnational threats again.
Senator King. Is that a danger? That we went in, in the
first place to eliminate it as a safe haven for terrorists? Now
we're going to be gone. How do we keep from being in 2001 all
over again?
Ms. Abizaid. Well, Senator, I think anywhere that we see a
significant terrorist presence, there is a danger of that
becoming some kind of platform to threaten the homeland from.
And I think that that's always the number-one priority of CT
analysts, of the counterterrorism community, is to monitor and
assess at what point, you know, we see external plotting from
various regions.
I think that that is true for the AFPAK region just as it
is true for Iraq-Syria, for North Africa, and various other
areas, where both an ISIS and Al Qaida presence in particular
remain. And so how we deter it is the way that we've deterred
it for years, which is relentless pressure against threats to
our interests.
Senator King. And that relentless pressure has to continue.
Just because we've pivoted toward near-peer competition does
not mean terrorism is entirely in the rearview mirror, is that
correct?
Ms. Abizaid. I couldn't agree more, Sir.
Senator King. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Warner. Senator Blunt?
Senator Blunt. Thank you, Chairman.
Ms. Abizaid, obviously one of the purposes of NCTC was to
integrate all the terrorist data and analyze it and be sure it
doesn't get into that phrase we used so often after 9/11, which
was stove piped. But there's so much data out there now. And
you've got great experience in this technical field.
What do we need to be doing to support your efforts in this
job, assuming you're confirmed--and I hope you will be--to help
provide the resources you need for that. That rapid analyzing,
the machine learning, the AI effort to get this down to where a
person needs to look at it and to know what they need to look
at on any given day?
Ms. Abizaid. Senator, thanks for the question. We were able
to discuss this briefly when we met, and I appreciate your time
and the time spent on this topic in particular.
I mentioned in my opening remarks that the technological
revolution that we're in presents both challenges and
opportunities for us in the counterterrorism world. If
confirmed, I'd seek to exploit those opportunities from big
data management, artificial intelligence, machine learning.
Looking at how those technologies apply to the vast amounts of
data that we need to process effectively and efficiently at the
National Counterterrorism Center. How can those be best applied
to our holdings and create a speed to act against a threat that
we all are so focused on every day?
So I don't know exactly how. I haven't gotten into the
Center to actually dig into the technologies that we're
leveraging today and the technological roadmap that we need to
apply. But I think modernization of the IT infrastructure,
thinking through fundamentals of the NCTC data lake and how we
exploit that data most effectively, while also I think
importantly building in some of the protections, the privacy
and civil liberty protections, Constitutional protections that
can be technologically achieved on the front end of design. All
of that I think will be really important when we're thinking
about how to modernize the system.
Senator Blunt. I think this is one of those areas where if
our adversaries get a significant breakthrough at any given
moment, we could get way behind in a hurry. And we don't want
to get way behind in a hurry.
I'd also say that when we were in the process of putting
this agency together after 9/11, I think we thought that NCTC
would be a pretty lean staff organization. It's about a
thousand people now. I'd like to hear your thoughts about what
kind of zero-based approach you might be willing to take to go
back and look at those thousand jobs and see if actually it's
gotten so big you could get information isolated in the Agency
that's supposed to be sharing all the information with other
agencies.
Ms. Abizaid. I appreciate the concern, Senator. And I think
it's an important thing for any director to consider along the
way. Manning challenges but while ensuring that you've got the
necessary expertise across the Center is going to be an
essential balance to strike.
And I do think, as I mentioned, that technology can play a
role in addressing some of the number of staff that we might
need, though I don't want to get ahead of myself since I
haven't had a chance to really review the roles, the
responsibilities, across the Agency. But I would commit to you,
Sir, that if confirmed, this would be something that I would
certainly prioritize and look at.
Senator Blunt. And share with us, I would hope.
Ms. Abizaid. Absolutely.
Senator Blunt. Ms. Ashton, I will say, when our good
friend, Senator and then Director Coats, said you were never
afraid to challenge the team, that was obviously an important
thing for an IG anywhere, and probably particularly in the job
we're talking about.
But you know, there's a specific waiver, as I would read
it, for the CIA IG if the CIA comes to you and says we really
think it's better if you don't look too closely at this, or
later might say you've looked at it, now we think it's better
if you don't share it, can you imagine a circumstance where you
might ever use that 50 USC 403 statute that is, I think,
largely unique to the CIA?
Ms. Ashton. Thank you. Thank you, Senator, for that
question. Yes, I am familiar with the statute, 50 USC 403, and
it does allow the director to step in and indicate that because
of a vital national security concern, he can step in and say,
``I do not want you to continue with an investigation or an
audit or a matter. I don't want you to conclude it. I don't
want you to issue a report,'' and things of that nature. It's
pretty specific.
If the Director does that, my understanding is that he
would contact this Committee and file either a report or a
statement or file a letter and that will be provided to me, as
well. I would have an opportunity to comment on that. And I
would also do that to the Committee.
So I do understand that that could happen. And I can
imagine a circumstance where the Director says, based on
information he has that I might not have, that there's a
national security issue at stake and that I might have to hold
off or stop altogether an activity. I think that would be very
rare. The statute seems to indicate that it's considered a very
rare occurrence. But, yes, I can imagine that it would happen.
Senator Blunt. But, in fact, if that happened, you'd insist
on notification as the statute anticipates and the ability to
even comment on that notification to this Committee?
Ms. Ashton. Exactly.
Senator Blunt. All right. Thank you, Chairman.
Vice Chairman Rubio. Senator Heinrich, are you ready?
Senator Gillibrand. Senator Gillibrand is on WebEx.
Vice Chairman Rubio. Senator Heinrich, go ahead.
Senator Heinrich. Is Senator Gillibrand in front of me?
Vice Chairman Rubio. It's by seniority.
Senator Gillibrand. I'm available, but, Martin, I think
you're ahead of me if you're there.
Vice Chairman Rubio. I have been going by seniority at the
gavel; so, Senator Heinrich?
Senator Heinrich. Ms. Ashton, as you know perhaps better
than most, the IG community came under quite a bit of pressure
during the last Administration. And you and the Intelligence
Community IG at the time, Michael Atkinson, spoke truth to
power and were fired for it.
What you and Mr. Atkinson did in the fall of 2019 to
protect a key whistleblower and get information to Congress
cost you your jobs. Going forward, I simply want to make sure
that the Intelligence Community IGs are better protected from
political pressure and retaliation and that their independence
can be assured.
Should you be confirmed, will you commit to sharing with
this Committee any recommendations that you might have for
legislative reforms to strengthen the CIA IG office and to make
sure that you can do that job independently?
Ms. Ashton. Absolutely, Senator. I very much appreciate the
commitment to whistleblowers that you and others in this
Committee have shown for so many years. It was very important,
during the matter that you just referred to, that many people
on this Committee came forward and made very supportive
comments about the whistleblower's right to be heard.
I will definitely work with this Committee and share the
insights that I gained through the process that we went through
so that perhaps proposals can be put in place or new
legislation can be put in place to enhance the protections
afforded whistleblowers, Inspectors General, and the people who
support the whistleblowers. Because a lot of times it's not
just the whistleblower coming forward; it's the people who
corroborate the whistleblower's complaint or statement. And
they, too, could suffer from reprisal or threats of reprisal.
And we don't want that to happen.
We want to open the lines of communication so employees can
come forward and share their concerns in a legitimate, lawful,
classified way. And I would be very happy, because I care so
fervently about this process, to work with this Committee and
others, who are coming up right now with very good proposals
for enhancing whistleblowers' protections.
Senator Heinrich. I think you just brought up a really,
really key point, which is this is a Committee that I'm very
proud to say has a history of not being the source of many of
the things that we read in the papers around here. And having
that official classified process is part of how we avoid those
kinds of problems, isn't it?
Ms. Ashton. Exactly, Senator. It's such an important
process. And the reason you all passed the legislation that put
that process in place is to ensure that very kind of
communication. Can people in the classified Intelligence
Community come forward in a lawful way so that there aren't
leaks? You know, when people get too frustrated, they might
leak information. We don't want that to happen.
And I think the statute is quite brilliant, because it
creates a process, an appropriate process and a very, very
clear process, for bringing concerns forward but not leaking
information. We don't want that kind of unauthorized
disclosure. We want people to come forward through the
Inspectors General, express themselves, and then have their
complaints or expressions of dissatisfaction or fear or worry,
have them bring those concerns forward. We'll take them. We'll
present them to you in an organized and lawful manner as
prescribed by statute.
And that way we get the communication that we need in order
to stay aware of what is happening in the entire Intelligence
Community, in the classified environment, but not having to
deal with unlawful disclosures or leaks.
Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I'm running a little bit short on time. I think
I'll leave my other questions for the record.
Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you.
Senator Cornyn?
Senator Cornyn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I might start by saying, Director Coats, I've never seen
you look so tan and rested as you are today. Somebody was
asking the other day, have you heard from Dan Coats? And I'm
glad to be able to report back we've had a sighting here today
and you're doing just great. It's good to see you.
Senator Coats. There is a life after.
Senator Cornyn. You have a big smile on your face, and
you're looking good.
So, Ms. Abizaid, I want to continue our conversation from
earlier today. Something I'm struggling with a little bit, a
conversation I've had with Director Haines, as we talked about
earlier. You know, our history includes periods of time in
which the U.S. Government has surveilled activity, lawful
activity by American citizens. I'm thinking of the civil rights
era, the anti-war movement during the Vietnam War, and the
like. And I am just a little bit concerned in light of some of
the abuses that Inspector Horowitz revealed even in the office
of the FBI in making misrepresentations to the FISA court about
American citizens in order to get a FISA warrant that--I think
this is an area fraught with a lot of danger.
And I know we talked about domestic violent extremism, for
example. And you know, we're all very familiar with the
elaborate and comprehensive and very effective set of tools the
Intelligence Community has in dealing with a foreign threat.
But here in the United States, when you're talking about
American citizens, you alluded to the right American citizens
have to speak freely and to assemble freely, petition their
government for the redress of grievances, in the words of the
Constitution. I worry a little bit that because of a lack of
clarity and because of ambiguity into exactly where the
authorities of the Intelligence Community stops or starts.
Traditionally, I would think that if you're talking about
American citizens committing crimes or even concerns about
intelligence, you'd be talking about the FBI. And I know the
Department of Homeland Security has a role to play, too.
But I'd just like for you to talk to us a little bit about
whether you share those concerns and if you think there are any
bright lines that we ought to observe and that the Intelligence
Community of which you will be a part again should observe.
Ms. Abizaid. Thank you, Senator Cornyn, for the question
and for the conversation that we had earlier today.
Any use of intelligence authorities needs to be consistent
with the Constitution and follow the laws of the land. That is
a very bright line. And it's one that has to govern all of our
activities across the Intelligence Community.
I think domestic violent extremism is a concern. It's
concerning in the rise that we've seen over the last several
years. It's been a concern for decades, frankly. And I think
that the FBI and now DHS have actually played a very effective
role and resourced appropriately, given the significance of
that threat. And they need to be in the lead. They are domestic
agencies, and they are the ones that that need to take the lead
in operating against that threat.
When I look at NCTC and the statute that enshrined it and
gave it capabilities, you know, it exists to connect the dots,
right? Foreign, domestic sources of intelligence around
terrorist threats are important for the National
Counterterrorism Center to have access to, to understand
whether there is any foreign nexus, and that is the primary
mission of the National Counterterrorism Center.
Where FBI and DHS seek the support of NCTC, I would hope,
if confirmed as director, that I would be able to provide that,
appropriate with--appropriately so with keeping in mind always
the Constitution and the laws of the land.
Senator Cornyn. Well, thank you for that answer. It's what
I would have expected to hear from you. But I do think that, as
I discussed with Director Haines, there needs to be as much
clarity as we can possibly provide because of the practical
consequences of a lack of trust by the American people in what
the Intelligence Community is actually doing.
And we have seen that here, as you and I talked about here
in Congress, when it comes to trying to reauthorize some of the
most critical tools that the Intelligence Community had, we
weren't able to even reauthorize Section 215, which is one of
the most basic kind of law enforcement tools not made that
available now to the IC because we just simply couldn't get it
done, because of a lack of trust in how they would be used.
So I think I've always thought of this as different layers
to try to earn the trust of the American people and Congress,
and so they would trust us to use these tools appropriately,
like you said, and consistent with the Constitution, consistent
with the rights of American citizens under the Bill of Rights.
So I look forward to working with you and also Director
Haines and others, Director Wray, and anybody else who wants to
contribute to that conversation, because I think we're entering
into a period where I think unless we are as clear as we can
humanly be about where those lines are, where authorities stop
and start, and how these tools are used, we are going to
jeopardize our ability to use the tools we actually need in the
Intelligence Community to keep our Nation safe. Thank you.
Chairman Warner. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Cornyn.
Senator Bennet?
Senator Bennet. Thank you. I'd like to ask Senator Cornyn's
question a little bit of a different way, Ms. Abizaid, because
I think it's an important point. And how do you--maybe this is
the wrong metaphor, but how do you think of the role of NCTC as
a bridge between the terrorist threats that are abroad and the
threats that are related to domestic terrorism here in the
United States?
Obviously, that concern has evolved over time since the
Agency was started. And actually, I'll bet you they've evolved
since you left government to be in the private sector and are
coming back. So I wonder if you could help us think about it in
that context.
Ms. Abizaid. I appreciate the question, Senator. And I
think you're right. The threat itself has evolved since I was
last deeply engaged in it, particularly related to the domestic
violent extremist threat.
And I think this question of balance and this question of
ensuring that the American people trust our use of our
authorities across the IC but also across all of our agencies
is a really important one.
NCTC was established to connect the dots. Integrating
intelligence from across an array of sources, whether they're
foreign or domestic sources of intelligence, is the mission of
the Center. How it does that, the way in which it collaborates
with other operating agencies, the way that it provides
information to FBI, to DHS, but also State and local
authorities, tribal authorities, that's a key kind of
dissemination requirement that is enshrined in the statute that
created NCTC and I think is an important one for us to follow
through at the center.
You know, this idea of integrating intelligence from all
sources, providing the best analytic expertise about not just
an incident, but the threat and the trajectory of the threat I
think is what the National Counterterrorism Center does best.
And if we can do that, supporting FBI and DHS as they take the
lead against domestic violence extremism, I would look forward
to being able to provide that support if confirmed.
Senator Bennet. Can you tell us how you think about the
ways in which social media--the role it's playing and the ways
it's challenging our counterterrorism mission?
Ms. Abizaid. I think there are a myriad of challenges
associated with social media platforms, whether it's the ways
in which terrorist groups and extremists exploit those
platforms to inspire others to act, to spread their--not just
ideologies that are violent in nature, but also the tactics,
techniques, and procedures that they use and would encourage
others to use.
I also think the encryption of some of those platforms
presents challenges as well, and as terrorist groups,
individuals that are moved to violence have access to more
ubiquitous technology, we in the Intelligence Community need to
work very hard to keep pace and stay ahead of the threat,
regardless of whether it is virtual or otherwise.
Senator Bennet. And how do you think about that? I mean,
now you're coming back. You've been at Dell for four years. You
probably learned some things there that are useful to you
coming back, I hope, in public service, as you gain your new
position. How are you going to approach the question: Where are
we on that learning curve? And have we adopted sort of best in
class technologies for what we're trying to do?
And by that I don't literally mean technology, although I
guess I do somewhat, but also the organizational structure is
probably just as important.
Ms. Abizaid. I think, Senator, asking those questions right
upfront is going to be essential, right? Getting a lay of the
land, understanding what technologies we employ, understanding
what kind of TTPs terrorist organizations are operating with--
in what online environments and what technologies I think is an
important question to ask.
How we approach that and how we approach that in a whole-
of-government way I think is going to be a key question going
forward. I don't know exactly the answer today, but it is
something that I would certainly seek to understand very soon
after being confirmed.
Senator Bennet. I don't think this Committee understands
the answer, either. But we're grappling with it. And I think we
look forward to having further conversations with you about it.
And Ms. Ashton, I'm out of time, but I would say that I
enjoyed our conversation yesterday and I want to thank you for
your courage. And it'll be a real privilege to vote to confirm
both of you.
Senator Coats, thank you for your extraordinary leadership,
as well.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Warner. Senator Casey?
Senator Casey. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. And I
want to thank and commend both nominees for your enduring
commitment to public service, for taking on the
responsibilities you seek to take on, and grateful for the
excellence that you bring to your work, and so grateful to see
Director Coats here. We're happy to have you back in the
Senate, no matter what hat you're wearing. And thank you for
that.
Ms. Abizaid, I'll start with you regarding Afghanistan. I
know that, as you said, I think, in your testimony today that
there would be a diminishment in our efforts to collect
intelligence and do counterterrorism. But I know you'd agree
with us that we have to continue that work.
What are your thoughts? Or do you have any plans or ideas
about how to mitigate the adverse impact of withdrawal--to be
able to continue a really robust counterterrorism within
Afghanistan and within the region? And what if any partnerships
do we have to strengthen or resuscitate to do that?
One, for example, would be Pakistan. How much can we place
reliance upon that relationship, as well as others?
But what are your thoughts on that? How to mitigate some of
the challenges that will arise?
Ms. Abizaid. Thank you for the question. You know, I don't
have all the prescriptions, right? I haven't spent any time in
the Intelligence Community in the last couple of years. But I
know this is going to be job one for the Intelligence
Community.
You know, NCTC itself doesn't have clandestine collection
authorities. But it is going to be very concerned about the
degree and the fidelity of intelligence from the region about
the terrorist threat. And so how we work with our partners at
the CIA, at NSA, at various other organizations to ensure that
we do maintain a robust focus--and hopefully a priority focus
in the region--on understanding the trajectory of the
counterterrorism environment, I think that that's got to be
key.
How we best do that, again, I think would be better left to
classified sessions, if, in fact, I'm confirmed and able to dig
into it. But I think it's going to be essential.
Foreign partners are also going to be critical in that. And
that's not just regional foreign partners. And Pakistan is an
important relationship. They have been an important
counterterrorism partner, even if they've been frustrating in
some respects, as well. But all the countries in the region
matter, and so do those other countries that have interests in
the region, and especially our NATO allies that have such time
on the ground shared with us and our U.S. forces, having a
collaboration across those foreign partnerships, those foreign
alliances, to make sure we all kind of share resources and do
our best to understand what's happening in that region, I think
will be absolutely essential.
Senator Casey. Well, thanks. I look forward to working with
you on it.
And, Ms. Ashton, I was going to ask a question about your
previous experience, but that's already been alluded to, and we
appreciate your determined public service under difficult
circumstances. I guess I wanted to look to the future in terms
of your role as the IG.
This is kind of a particular question about what some would
argue would be an obligation. I guess I'll just ask it this
way. Do you believe the CIA is obligated upon request to
provide direction to a whistleblower on how to contact either
of the Congressional intelligence committees?
Ms. Ashton. Thank you for that question, Senator. Yes, I do
believe that. I think the statute is very clear. We have to
have a way for people to come forward in a lawful way and share
classified information with this Committee. That's absolutely
clear.
And if I were confirmed as the Inspector General, I will
start day one to ensure that the CIA's whistleblower program is
strong and robust, that people have a way to come forward, that
they understand how to come forward, and very importantly, that
when they do come forward, there are true professionals on the
other side of the phone or the computer or the letter to answer
questions and to guide the person as they're moving forward in
the process.
Because it isn't an easy process always. And we have to not
only present--. You know, it's not just a statute. We have to
provide steps and guidance and instruction so that people can
effectively bring their concerns to the Inspector General's
office and that eventually those concerns are delivered,
disseminated to this Committee when appropriate.
Senator Casey. Thanks very much. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Warner. Senator King, you've got another question?
Senator King. Senator Gillibrand.
Chairman Warner. Oh, Senator Gillibrand on WebEx.
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How
are you?
I first want to talk to Ms. Abizaid. You are a bit of a
first, so I want to congratulate you. You are a career national
security professional, and if confirmed, would be the first
woman to lead the NCTC. What does that mean for you? And how do
you believe the Intelligence Community could better recruit and
retrain and promote women like yourself?
Ms. Abizaid. Thank you very much, Senator. I appreciate the
question. I actually am really fortunate to have come up in the
Intelligence Community with a number of women who I respect a
great deal and who I think would be excellent at this job or
any other Senate-confirmed position.
I think there are a number of women that are ready and
eager to serve their country and serve it with honor and
distinction across the board. And I think that my performance
as director, Director Haines' performance as the DNI, all of
that should just be taken as an example that it is very
achievable for other women to do the same.
Senator Gillibrand. So we've heard testimony over the last
several months about how we can recruit and retain the best
Intelligence Community members. And one of the ideas we've been
talking a bit about is having a cyber academy, particularly for
service members and civilians to come into the area of
intelligence through something like a service academy, but one
that is for a civilian workforce, so they could go into
intelligence, they could go into commerce or Treasury or
Department of Energy, but particularly in the cyber space,
because we are obviously competing with the great industries of
the world, of the Googles and the Facebooks, but we want to
introduce this idea of public service earlier in people's
careers.
Because today I've heard a lot of our recruits come
laterally from the DOD. And as you know, DOD is largely male,
largely white, largely people who are interested in learning
how to shoot a gun and are very physically fit. And not all of
those characteristics are necessary for the greatest cyber
minds in the world.
So tell me how you would see something like a cyber academy
where we could create a pipeline for workforce, particularly in
the intelligence careers, through a civilian-type academy,
where if they go to school and receive their education, they
give back four years?
Ms. Abizaid. Senator, this is the first I've heard of the
idea, but I really like it. I think the opportunity to serve is
one that that many people would like to have. Some would choose
not to do it merely based on financial or even just a sense
that the path doesn't exist for them.
And I think anything that we can do to create those paths
and to open it up to a broader array of expertise that exists
across a very talented landscape in our country, I think it
would be great.
You know, I've spent the last four years in the private
sector and have been really impressed with the kind of
expertise and commitment to the country to serving the Nation
that I see in my colleagues. And so it sounds like a very
interesting idea.
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you. One of my concerns is that--
what should we say--the landscape on which we are playing today
tends to be the United States infrastructure. And I'm very
concerned that from the counterterrorism perspective that our
terrorist opponents are using our own infrastructure as their
targets, through cyber-attack.
Whether we're talking about pipelines or we're talking
about meat processing facilities or we're talking about
computer networks and Microsoft apps, we seem to have
vulnerabilities. And in fact, we've had hearings in this
Committee where our witnesses have talked about blind spots and
how the cyber defense that we need isn't where it needs to be.
Can you talk a little bit about what your vision is to deal
with cyberterrorism and counterterrorism when it is actually
focused on terrorism here in the United States against U.S.
assets and U.S. companies?
Ms. Abizaid. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think
that anything that we can do to enhance the cybersecurity,
especially of critical infrastructure, but across the board is
absolutely essential. And it's to protect against those that
would have capability, and I think that capability is becoming
more ubiquitous, and seek to do the country harm.
To the extent that those that have that capability and want
to use that are terrorist groups, that would be of significant
interest to the National Counterterrorism Center. Any tactics,
techniques, or procedures that terrorists use are something
that we need to develop a capability to understand and
mitigate.
And we would need in this case to do that in close
cooperation with the cyber executive who resides at the ODNI,
but also our cyber expertise that resides across government.
And this idea of working across silos, that is what NCTC does
really well. It's something that I think we could really
enhance the cybersecurity and cyber experts across our
government. Our processes could actually inform theirs in ways
that I think could be very effective.
So to the extent that this is a significant threat posed by
terrorist groups, it would be something that would be of
paramount focus.
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator King. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Warner had a commitment, and so the Constitution is
in danger because I'm in charge.
[Laughter.]
Ms. Abizaid, I think we're making this question about
domestic violent extremism more complicated than it needs to
be. The key word is violent. Terrorism, and I just looked it
up, is the unlawful use of violence or intimidation, especially
against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
If there was an ISIS cell in Pensacola and information came
to you that they were plotting to kidnap and assassinate the
Governor of Florida, would that not be squarely in your lane of
information-sharing between your agency and the FBI, for
example?
Ms. Abizaid. It absolutely would.
Senator King. So if that organization in Pensacola was
Aryan Americans for the White Race plotting to kidnap the
Governor of Florida and assassinate him, would that not be
squarely within your jurisdiction that you would then work with
the FBI to try to thwart that violent threat against the
Governor?
Ms. Abizaid. If we had that information, we absolutely
would work with the FBI. And FBI, I would imagine, would take
the lead on thwarting that, absolutely.
Senator King. I think there's been a lot of talk about
bright lines. The bright line is violence. Nobody's talking
about snooping on Americans for their political beliefs or how
they feel about various provisions of the Constitution.
Your jurisdiction is terrorism. And if it involves threats
of violence, your job is to thwart violence against civilians
and political figures, if you will, in our country, is it not?
Ms. Abizaid. It is. That's right.
Senator King. So, I would urge you that--this question
keeps coming up. And there's unease about it. And I understand
we don't want to be in the business of spying on Americans.
But we also have to protect ourselves, just as we protect
ourselves against criminal enterprises that are conspiring to
rob banks or blow up a bridge or whatever the purpose is. So I
appreciate your appearance here today, but to me the key phrase
is ``domestic violent extremists.'' It's not ``domestic
extremists.'' The key question is violence. And if you focus on
that, I think that keeps you out of the weeds of this
Constitutional unease that we've heard expressed here today.
Are there any other questions on WebEx?
Other than that, I appreciate our witnesses being here
today. Senator Coats, pleasure to have you. Thank you both for
your dedication to this country and your willingness to
undertake a new task in public service.
With that, I believe the Chairman said that the record is
open until Friday afternoon at the close of business for
questions for the record.
Thank you all very much. The hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon at 4:05 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.]
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